if you would like...

[ILOVE2SKI]

Hey guys-
...I would like to ask you a favor, I know a lot about tucks but now I need some true and good info. I need to do a research project so if you don’t mind I would like to ask you for help. I need to answer a question like “Is the ravine actually safe?”

My Theory (Probably many of yours as well): Yes the Ravine is safe :tucks: . Out of the 131 deaths on Mount Washington- Not too many have been skiing related deaths, although there are some injuries. Also-you can hike up to you ability, and most of the accidents could have been preventable. (Like the fall with the snowboarder with the ice ax—Does anybody know the link of this picture)? Also, if the ravine you hike the ravine for a reason: If there was a chairlift going up to the top, any old beginner could just go up there and get himself killed; but instead you have to hike up (meaning you have to be pretty fit) and you climb up to your ability level. This is one of the reasons (along with wind) that they don’t allow helicopters in the ravine

Is There Danger in the Ravine: Yes there is. Avalanche danger and things such as falling rocks and ice still do exist. But avalanches can be prevented to an extent and you are more likely to get hit by a train then buy falling ice. So, if you use your head and be smart, even though there is danger, it is still preventable.

Are there any sites that you guys know that may give me info on this type of thing (including parts of this site) Thanks-especially if you have taken the time to read this. :o Wow that was alot of typing.

[DMC]

ILOVE2SKI:
“Is the ravine actually safe?”
The Ravine is NOT safe... There's nothing safe about it.. It is extremely dangerous.. I fear for my life every time I'm there..

There may not be a lot of people getting killed but there are lots of injuries...

I've seen a bunch of people get hit by falling ice... I've NEVER seen anyone get hit by a train..

One more thing - avalanches cannot be prevented at TUX... You and only you can make the right choices based upon experience, facts and how prepared you are.

[M@]

It's definatly not safe. It's a place people go to do something dangerous.

M@

[ILOVE2SKI]

true but gfor a project what would be a good approach to make it look safe-I was saying some of those things to make it sound less dangerous-should I take a different approach to the project?

[Skilasnow]

Don't try to make it sound safe, but rather that much danger can be mitigated by careful planning, common sense, not so common sense, completely uncommon sense, knowledge and rational decision making based on experience, fitness, knowledge, etc

{Daredevils Be Warned -- Death Inhabits This Realm}

[ILOVE2SKI]

That's a good point

[skicdave]

Skiing the Sherburne is somewhat safe.... although it is possible you might have a heart attach carrying up your gear on a warm spring day.

Even just hiking to watch from Lunch Rocks isn't safe.

I haven't seen anyone seriously hurt, but I have seen several near deaths or possible deaths and some hard to watch wipeouts etc, blood etc... and all that without even seeing an avalanche thankfully.

I never feel safe for a moment there.

Tucks is only safe once your at Shannon doors with a beer in hand.

Be forewarned!

Maybe Hermit Lake shelters is safe... you'll have to talk to M@ about that one.

[DMC]

The shelters are not safe!!!

I've seen people hit their heads on those rafters a ton of times....

That and there's nasty killer red squirrels...

[skicdave]

DMC:
The shelters are not safe!!!

I've seen people hit their heads on those rafters a ton of times....

That and there's nasty killer red squirrels... pickled eggs even? :eek:

[M@]

Some guy tried to snow board off the roof of a shelter once, and messed up his back pretty bad. I can't find the incident report, but here's some good info for you:
Indicent Summaries 2003 (http://www.tuckerman.org/accident/Summaries03/otherincidents2003.htm)
Incident Summaries 2002 (http://www.tuckerman.org/accident/Summaries02/otherincidents2002.htm)

Poke around that site for more accidents reports etc...

I guess I don't understand your question: "Is the ravine actually safe." I think you could probably put it in a list of "safeness:
1. Base Jumping
2. Sky Diving from plane
3. General Aviation
4. Skiing Tuckerman Ravine
5. Heli Skiing
...
...
9,403: Watching MASH reruns

M@

[targheehucker]

I would beg to differ with some of your conclusions, thinking you are getting the terms hazard and risk mixed up. It seems if you are into researching this type of thing you would want to do a literature review of risk and hazard assesment of the tuckerman environment (winter climate, avalanche, recreation, backcountry skiing)

[el-bagr]

Hey M@, have any more indecent summaries?

ILOVE2SKI, what sort of class is this for? I agree with the sages who hold that it is not safe. You could get into an interesting analysis of what is "safe", anyway? It's all relative. Remember, living in Denver (solar radiation) and eating peanuts (aflatoxin) are both more dangerous than flying in an airplane. (Google it if you don't believe me.) In Maine, by law, skiing (and hang-gliding) are designated "hazardous".

[M@]

el-bagr:
Start here:
http://www.tuckerman.org/accident/accident.htm

And click the years for the overview - and then click "Incident Reports" to get more detail.

They are focused on showing how many hours/people it took to do the recue - I guess it's kind of a justification for the rescue teams being up there, not that they need any in my eyes. They're mostly volunteers is my understanding.

Which makes me wonder: Do I have what it takes to do some volunteer time up there? Better wait till the kids are a little older.

M@

[RR]

Incedent counts and the ratio of severity are not a measure of "safety". The size of the potential disaster is not a measure of anything.

Hazzard Levels rise due to a number of factors, many of them are present in the Ravine. Safety increases only in relation to the completeness of the understanding of the hazzards and the steps taken to minimise exposure.

Since there the only sure way to stay safe relative to Tucks is to avoid the place, the Ravine itself cannot be considered safe.

[Finhead]

I think RR stated it perfectly. It really doesn't matter how much you minimize the risk or completely understand the hazards and conditions, there is always that unknown (hence the allure for some). Alot of so called experts die every year all over the world because of this unknown.

And no the shelters (tent) is not safe either. I think I froze my :cookies: off up there. Still can't find them. I'll have to check with the wife. :confused:

[Mumster]

Finhead:
I think I froze my :cookies: off up there. Still can't find them. :confused: :eek:

[Castlerock]

A few weeks ago I was reading the summaries of the "minor" incidents. I thought this was interesting in ligt of some past threads on ice axes...

5-3-2003: The victim was hiking up the Right Gully wearing crampons (and had no ice axe) when he fell. He caught his crampon in the fall twisting his ankle. He was lowered down the slope on a 300' static rope by the MWVSP and a USFS Snow Ranger and put in a litter on the floor of the ravine. He was then carried down to Pinkham by a group of volunteers and taken by ambulance to the hospital. This rescue took 24 people and 4 hours (46.5 person hours) to complete. The victim reported back that he had broken his ankle and had a plate and 5 screws installed.

[Mumster]

Castlerock:
He should have read this board before his trip. I recall someone (I think it was you) warning us not to use :crampons: without an :iceaxe: .

ILOVE2SKI could add something to his manuscript about the T4T board info reducing TRs inherent risks. ;)

[bfast]

This was such a bad "unclear question(s).....a car ride (like thr one to Tucks) is more dangerous...By the way, if you have a dog and you bring it to tukermans make sure your breed is an adult can handle the Mt...I've seen 2 dogs tumble over the lip:an 6-9month old puppy(right breed-Lab-but too young)barrel-rolled about 4-5 hundred vertical; an adult mut w/collie mix "rag-dolled"and somersaulted same distance(supposedly died later. Maybe this should should be for a diff. topic.

[ILOVE2SKI]

Mumster:


ILOVE2SKI could add something to his manuscript about the T4T board info reducing TRs inherent risks. ;) Lol- ;)

[DMC]

Don't get me started on the dog issue...

Seen many bad things...