Steel vs. Aluminum crampons

[awf170]

Ehh? I can get a pair wicked cheap of either? Which will be better for just Mt. Washington stuff, no ice. Steel will survive more of a beating right?

[PWDR8S]

Ehh? I can get a pair wicked cheap of either? Which will be better for just Mt. Washington stuff, no ice. Steel will survive more of a beating right?

A lot depends on where you're going to use these crampons. If you plan on several ice/snowrock scrambles, then steel might be the choice. If you're going to be mostly on snow and ice and very little or no rocks, then Alum is your choice. The weight savings leans towards aluminum and does add up the farther you go.

Think of where you'll be using them the most. I have both and found over time I tend not to be scrambling over rocks and talus like I used to so I switched to aluminum. Plus if they take a real ding, I can hammer it back into position.

[RR]

alu-pons are for people with disposable income.

[awf170]

Steel it is then. Since they both are supposedly 2 lbs.


Also, while you guys are at it: What size for an ice axe? I'm 6 ft tall with long legs. You know for Mt. Wash stuff like the Great Gulf and Tucks.

[Jonathan Shefftz]

I think steel crampons are almost entirely pointless (pun?) for a skier on Mt Washington: extra weight with almost no extra benefits. All-alu crampons are fine for the occassional rocks you might briefly encounter while spring skiing, just as long as you aren't really engaging in mixed climbing. I've tromped over some rocky sections each year with mine, and they are still perfectly fine.
The only times I've used my steel crampons in the Presidentials for skiing were:
-- heading up each May on Lowe's Path to Gray Knob (lots of pure ice & lots of long rock ysections)
-- climbing up Right Gully once in early November for a summit>Pinkham ski, since I suspected I might encounter lots of rocks on steep terrain

Whatever you do though, stay far away from Kahtoolas (both in terms of buying them, and from any climbers with them) since their are really intended for lower-angle terrain, and their minimal front points create a high danger of just shearing away on the steep terrain you need crampons for on Mt Washington.

Here's a good deal on the older Camp model I have (as noted in the description, differing from the picture):
http://gearx.com/product_info.php?products_id=1704

[jshefftz]

Steel it is then. Since they both are supposedly 2 lbs.
Camp XLC 470 12-pt semi-auto all-alu weighs 16.6 oz;
Grivel G12 semi-auto weighs 33.9 oz.
My older Camp all-alu crampons weigh 21.2 oz;
my older G12 crampons weigh 33.6 oz.
I find that the weight difference between them when climbing is immediately apparent and very significant. (Somewhat akin to the difference re Diamirs and Dynafits when skinning.)
Also, my old Camp all-alu crampons are still in perfect condition after many years of use, include some brief rocky sections each season.


Also, while you guys are at it: What size for an ice axe? I'm 6 ft tall with long legs. You know for Mt. Wash stuff like the Great Gulf and Tucks.
I have a 50cm Camp XLA 210 and a 60cm BD Raven Pro. I'm 5'8", although seems like the personal body measurement that would really matter is height measured only from shoulder minus arm length?
The 50cm length is fine for any pitches => 40 degrees, which is about when I typically give up on skinning.
Anything less steep and the 50cm length feels too short.
The one time I feel I made the wrong decision by bringing the 50cm axe was last year on Shasta's West Face. Having skinned up both Hotlum-Wintun ridge & Avalanche Gulch the previous year, I didn't think I'd be using crampons & ice axe much, so I just brought the super-light 50cm Camp. Somehow I forgot about the implications of the "west" part, so the face was too frozen for comfortable skinning, even with ski crampons. (Although admittedly I never even tried.) And at only around 30 degrees or so, the 50cm axe felt too short.

[awf170]

Anyway here are the crampons I'm comparing: (both more than 50% off)

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/325,78091_Camp-Green-Ice-Step-In-Crampons.html

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,68529_Camp-Step-In-Crampons-Ice-Rider-.html

Also, here is the ice axe I'm looking at:
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,78064_Cassin-Sharad-Alpine-Climbing-Ice-Axe.html

I'm hoping that 65cm would be long enough.

[PWDR8S]

I'ld be cautious with those wire toe bales... the stiff wires to hold toe onto your boots. I had a pair of CAMP cramps that had them and used them with both my hiking/mountain boots(Limmers) and my Mega-Rides and found they slipped off occassionally which makes for awkward and dangerous situations on the steep. Even with the strapping all really really tight, they managed to slip off the boots. :eek: Since then I've gone with the webbing that covers the whole toe end of the boot and never had a problem since. Just something to consider.

[jshefftz]

A 65cm axe should be fine for you on steep pitches.

But although those stp deals will save you a few $$, you'll be feeling all that extra weight compared to:
http://gearx.com/product_info.php?products_id=1704
http://www.backcountry.com/store/BLD0840/c5/s12/Black-Diamond-Neve-Pro-Crampons.html
http://www.backcountry.com/store/SMD0006/Simond-Ocelot-Hyper-Light-Ice-Axe.html?id=jDkTtT8s
http://www.backcountry.com/store/CMP0019/CAMP-USA-XLA-210-Ice-Axe.html?id=jDkTtT8s

[awf170]

I'ld be cautious with those wire toe bales... the stiff wires to hold toe onto your boots. I had a pair of CAMP cramps that had them and used them with both my hiking/mountain boots(Limmers) and my Mega-Rides and found they slipped off occassionally which makes for awkward and dangerous situations on the steep. Even with the strapping all really really tight, they managed to slip off the boots. :eek: Since then I've gone with the webbing that covers the whole toe end of the boot and never had a problem since. Just something to consider.


That's weird, I always thought toe bales were the way to go with an AT boot. Opinions?

[jshefftz]

I've always been partial to a semi-automatic attachment system, so that you still have the rear lever, yet the toe attachment cradles the front of the boot a bit more, and then you can really crank that strap that connects the rear lever and the front cradle.
Takes a bit longer than a full automatic system, but the extra security is comforting.
However, some fully automatic systems with the wire toe bail also have a strap that connects the rear lever with the wire toe bail, but I don't have any personal experience with those.

[PWDR8S]

I've always been partial to a semi-automatic attachment system, so that you still have the rear lever, yet the toe attachment cradles the front of the boot a bit more, and then you can really crank that strap that connects the rear lever and the front cradle.
Takes a bit longer than a full automatic system, but the extra security is comforting.
However, some fully automatic systems with the wire toe bail also have a strap that connects the rear lever with the wire toe bail, but I don't have any personal experience with those.

That's what I use but never knew what it is called. I've been very happy with it so far.

[RR]

As a bulky sort of guy, I would be shying away from alu-pons, but if I was to go that way I have to confess those BD Neve Pro pons look very stout.

That Simond Axe in 68cm looks very good and the price is nice. I have Simond 10pt hiking pons and one of their old Pirahna ice tools....I have had them since the mid '90s and they are still going strong.

Jonathan has nailed it again...those products are a full step above the STP offerings and the prices are right there!

Reps to JS!

[cms829]

My personal opinion is a 50cm axe is too short. At that size your looking at a technical tool. Not a general mtneering axe. Mine is 60cm and at 5'6" sometimes I wish it were a hair longer. I personally use the black diamond raven (thanks affix) 50 cm are the size of my petzl quarks.

As far as crampons....these are my reccomendation and will do a variety of things well...but prob dont specifically excel at anything. a great all around steel pon....at a great price.

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Black+Diamond/idesc/Bionic+Pro+Crampons+%2D+Closeout/Store/MG/item/102110/N/0


ps....toe bails need to fit your boot properly or they will not be secure....and will come off at all the wrong times!

[jshefftz]

My personal opinion is a 50cm axe is too short. At that size your looking at a technical tool. Not a general mtneering axe. Mine is 60cm and at 5'6" sometimes I wish it were a hair longer. I personally use the black diamond raven (thanks affix) 50 cm are the size of my petzl quarks.
Much of this is personal preference, but for climbing up steep pitches in Tux, a 50cm axe works fine, although 60cm or even 65cm is certainly an entirely reasonable & justifiable choice too.

As far as crampons....these are my reccomendation and will do a variety of things well...but prob dont specifically excel at anything. a great all around steel pon....at a great price.

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Black+Diamond/idesc/Bionic+Pro+Crampons+%2D+Closeout/Store/MG/item/102110/N/0

For climbing up steep pitches that you're going to ski in Tux (or have already skied, in the case of Great Gulf), those crampons are a waste of both $ and oz (13 oz per foot to be precise, compared to the latest Camp all-alu model).

[cms829]

Much of this is personal preference, but for climbing up steep pitches in Tux, a 50cm axe works fine, although 60cm or even 65cm is certainly an entirely reasonable & justifiable choice too.


For climbing up steep pitches that you're going to ski in Tux (or have already skied, in the case of Great Gulf), those crampons are a waste of both $ and oz (13 oz per foot to be precise, compared to the latest Camp all-alu model).
True on the axe. but a slightly larger axe would be good for the steeps in tucks and suitable for glacier travel and general snow travel...where a 50 cm axe is pretty much useless as a walking tool unless your 4'5" :)

why are those a waste of money? just curious. :confused: mine worked great for me on rainier. I dont beleive one needs to be counting ounces when using pons in tucks or anywhere else on washington for that matter. And they'll hold up to a lot more then the camp aluminums will if you find yourself on some scree or rock. Once again...just my opinion. :skiplow:

[boardman]

All this talk of weight, I don't know. You're talking 6 oz. here, 6 oz. there. C'mon! Unless you're carrying 70 lbs. worth of shyte above 9-10K feet, the difference is negligible. I've carried my BD Sabretooths on everything I've done on Mt. Washington - ice, snowboarding, alpine climbing, etc., and never thought, "damn, I wish these were 6 oz. lighter"!

YMMV

(I've known too many guys who were obsessive about weight in the mountain biking realm, worrying about 8 grams here, 8 grams there; my advice to them generally was to eat one less cheeseburger a week)

[jshefftz]

waste of money:
- The steel crampons in question cost more than the closeout special on the old all-alu Camp crampons I have.
waste of weight:
- On the rare trips I feel the need to use my steel crampons instead of alu, I feel that the difference in each step is immediately noticeable and significant.
exception:
- If you can afford only pair of crampons to do everything *and* you plan on general mountaineering that might entail terrain either more technical or rockier than climbing up Tux or GG to ski, then yes, steel crampons are the better choice, since alu will limit your route selection.

[cms829]

All this talk of weight, I don't know. You're talking 6 oz. here, 6 oz. there. C'mon! Unless you're carrying 70 lbs. worth of shyte above 9-10K feet, the difference is negligible. I've carried my BD Sabretooths on everything I've done on Mt. Washington - ice, snowboarding, alpine climbing, etc., and never thought, "damn, I wish these were 6 oz. lighter"!


Exactly. I just carried literally 70 lbs of gear to ingraham flats on Rainier a few weeks ago and I dont beleive I once thought about the weight of my crampons. I also carried a full size toothbrush up though too...so...call me naive.

[cms829]

waste of money:

- If you can afford only pair of crampons to do everything *and* you plan on general mountaineering that might entail terrain either more technical or rockier than climbing up Tux or GG to ski, then yes, steel crampons are the better choice, since alu will limit your route selection.

so how does that make them a waste of money? lol. ;) all in good fun bro. but yea...like you said. me personally...I cant justify buying 2-3 diff pairs of crampons. so theyre a great all around pair...they'll do verticle they'll do glacial sloggin, they'll french, they'll hold up to mixed, hold up to scree fields, they'll front point.... etc etc. and they'll do it all well. :crampons:

[RR]

Jon's got a real solid frame of reference around his choices. He logs a month a season (probably more) of long days in rando comps and on trips above 10k. Then there's the training and recreation part of his skiing, etc.

Lightness under foot is one thing, consider that for the ounce shaver, getting to choose a pack that is lighter because the gear is lighter is part of the equation. The cool thing about that math is that it propagates into lighter and lighter gear as the seasons pass.

It's one way to do it.

My spokes are all 14g stainles, straight, not butted. All my gear is dialed to take heavy abuse or be cheaply replaced...so it's heavier. Its's another way to do it.

PS: I'm learning, I just replaced my light "D" and "Oval" biners with "Dovals" and BD wiregate Ovals...the difference is amazing. My Galaxy Bi-color finally got some mild sheath damage...time to replace it with something lighter per meter...that will make a huge difference!

[NtrentT]

I didn't read what others posted, so this may be redundant.

Steel = heavier , I have a pair of sabertooths and love them but they are heavy.

A few friends of mine have a much less aggressive pair of aluminum CAMP brand pons, which are practically weightless compared to the sabers mentioned above.

I used and needed my cramps at Garfield this past Dec but wished I had a lighter pair like the CAMPS. When we hiked out I had my boards, and skied out, but the other two had their CAMP cramps on for a large portion of the trip they wore pretty well considering.

Aluminum is a very soft metal, as most know, and in comparison Steel is much harder.

Without the comparison I wouldn't be saying whats soft and whats hard....* O geeze I hear it already ... :doh:

[boardman]

Jon's got a real solid frame of reference around his choices. He logs a month a season (probably more) of long days in rando comps and on trips above 10k. Then there's the training and recreation part of his skiing, etc.

Lightness under foot is one thing, consider that for the ounce shaver, getting to choose a pack that is lighter because the gear is lighter is part of the equation. The cool thing about that math is that it propagates into lighter and lighter gear as the seasons pass.

It's one way to do it.

My spokes are all 14g stainles, straight, not butted. All my gear is dialed to take heavy abuse or be cheaply replaced...so it's heavier. Its's another way to do it.

PS: I'm learning, I just replaced my light "D" and "Oval" biners with "Dovals" and BD wiregate Ovals...the difference is amazing. My Galaxy Bi-color finally got some mild sheath damage...time to replace it with something lighter per meter...that will make a huge difference!

No question, RR -- nobody's refuting Jonathan's creds, least of all me -- but you said it yourself, he's not the AVERAGE bc ski joe! He's in a bit more elite class. I just think that the few ounces of weight aren't going to make a tremendous difference for short excursions on the Rockpile. Certainly at altitude, every ounce matters. But I suppose if the original poster has higher aspirations, it might be good to start now.

I'm not a freak about weight on my climbing rack - for example, I would never think of giving up my BD Camalots, which are heavier than most (but have other, greater benefits) -- but I rdo ack all my stuff on BD Neutrinos and a few OP JC's, and have Neutrino/Hotwire combos on all my 8mm Mammut slings! But I see a much greater need for weight shaving in that realm.

ah, who am I kidding? I'm probably going to pick up a pair of lightweight aluminum crampons myself! haha! (for long, snowbound alpine rock approaches). ;)

[RR]

...
ah, who am I kidding? I'm probably going to pick up a pair of lightweight aluminum crampons myself! haha! (for long, snowbound alpine rock approaches). ;)Me too...as soon as I can figure a way to sneak them into the gear closet w/o notice...but I'll prolly go with the Neve-Pros.

I'm still checking around for rope deals to replace my Galaxy, on the heavy side, but very safe.

[cbcbd]

AWF, I wouldn't go with less than 60cm axe for your height if you're just planning on using it until you can't skin no more and have no aspirations of doing any other mountaineering related activities.

[Affix Snow]

I have The camp XLC Racing Set.
http://www.camp-usa.com/images/module/product/XLC-Racing-Set.png

- 50 cm XLA 210 axe and XLC 390 crampons
- Total weight: 600 g

I love them. Axe length is personal PREFERENCE. Im 5'9" on a good day and i can self arrest with it so im happy. The weight is where its at for me. For long spring slogs especially when i have a heavy snowboard on my back, the 3+lbs i can save with this set-up versus my steel cramps/heavier axe is sooooo worth it. Not to mention all the other wieght saving stuff ive accumulated, it really adds up and is worrh it.

I will take my steel cramps out on tours in winter sometimes. Specifically in the Daks where i might be climbing some ice to make some turns, and if that is the case, i ditch the single axe and bring the Quarks. At this point saving weight is out the window:)

In conclusion, Ill go with the Fullers ESB and some chicken wings.

[Jolly J]

I have steel pons. If I was worried about weight, my beer belly wouldn't have grown this summer.

[PWDR8S]

Exactly. I just carried literally 70 lbs of gear to ingraham flats on Rainier a few weeks ago and I dont beleive I once thought about the weight of my crampons. I also carried a full size toothbrush up though too...so...call me naive.

:eek: :eek: :eek: You ANIMAL! I gots some beer I want you to carry up to TUX for me next season. :D ;) :D

[cms829]

:eek: :eek: :eek: You ANIMAL! I gots some beer I want you to carry up to TUX for me next season. :D ;) :D


LOL! :unhappyhiker:

[Ispoiler]

Not much to add, but I prefer a shorter alu axe and pons for the weight savings. I was a non believer untill an uber alpinist schooled me on their benefits. A point people seem to be missing is that for the most part we all have ski poles with us that are more then adequate for the lower angle snow at tucks. A ski pole in one hand with a shorter axe in the other will get me up anything I would like to ski down.

Tooth brush!?! Isn't that what your adze is for!

A funny side note about mtb weight weenies, two brothers I used to ride with were arguing over a tire/ rim combo and the difference was under 10 grams. Both of them had long nappy dreads that prob weight over 5lbs once wet, yet the were that concerned over 10g's!

[awf170]

Just ordered these:
http://www.backcountry.com/store/BLD0840/Black-Diamond-Neve-Pro-Crampons.html?id=4jSn4Uni
and this:
http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Black+Diamond/idesc/Raven+Pro+Ice+/Store/MG/item/981232/N/0

So is it ski season yet?

[RR]

Wisely done....lighter than most in both cases, yet both are beefy enough to handle rugged use...

excellent prices btw!

[mainwaring]

not that any of us needs any more toys, but CAMP may have solved the alu/steel conundrum:

http://www.backcountry.com/store/CMP0053/?view_large_image=1&swatch=CMP0053

http://www.backcountry.com/store/CMP0056/c5/s54/CAMP-USA-XLC-Nanotech-Crampons.html

[jshefftz]

Just ordered these...
Nice! (Now just remember to get some training in their proper use.)

So is it ski season yet?
It's always ski season somewhere in the world . . . or as my brother says, "Ski season never ends -- the snow just gets further away."

not that any of us needs any more toys, but CAMP may have solved the alu/steel conundrum...
Sort of: the axe offers great performance at absurdly light weight, but the crampons have only two steel-tipped points, so performance will be greatly enchanced for frontpointing, but not for anything else, and the other 10 points will get dulled quickly on rock. Still a nice upgrade over all-alu crampons, but not by much.