poll: American Inferno [Archive] - T4T Forums

Skilasnow

05-29-2006, 10:44 PM

Would a moderator help out please... with a poll...

How much faster could today's top skier ski the famous (err... infamous?...) American Inferno given the same conditions?

1. Toni Matt's time won't be beat
2. Toni Matt's time would be matched, give or take 15 seconds...
3. Toni Matt's time would be beat (by more than 30 seconds)
4. Toni Matt's time would be smashed! (by well more than a minute)
5. :chicken:

I posit that if a new American Inferno were to be run next year, and assuming the same conditions, more or less, that Toni Matt's time of 6:29 might be beat by less than 0:30, and here is my hypothesis:

Today's skier may have the superior equipment by a far margin, BUT, they don't have the hike-to stamina that Toni and his contemporaries had, and further don't have the lasting speed given Toni by 230 skis (or there abouts)

"... I was stupid, young, and had strong legs"

Furthermore, I would suggest that it wouldn't be an Olympic downhiller such as Bode, Hermann, or Daron, but rather an extremer such as Seth or Ingrid....

05-29-2006, 10:54 PM

I'll go with #3. Davenport, Thor..easy, they drop huge lines at intense speeds. Kent Krietler, yea very sick puppy...Max Mancini would prolly throw big spinning air and still beat the time.

riverc0il

05-30-2006, 07:02 AM

i also voted option three. i am surprised no one has tried to do this unofficially by use of a stop watch or something. or at least, no one has bragged about it if them did it :lol: toni matt is a tuckerman legend, i would have suspected a good number of extreme skiers would love to one up a legend like that.

Phishing

05-30-2006, 09:16 AM

Skilasnow

05-30-2006, 09:55 AM

Don't think the time could be beat due to the lack of snow. I really think we got more snow then. I have heard stories of the Little Headwall actually being "that". All other things being equal sure it could be beat.
It does say assuming the same conditions

or at least, no one has bragged about it .
Maybe because they couldnt come close to Toni Matts time ;)

05-30-2006, 10:11 AM

It does say assuming the same conditions

Maybe because they couldnt come close to Toni Matts time ;)if it was to be attempted at least one set of changes would have to be completed first. Due to the warmer climate the oportinistic tree species that have grown in on the original course would have to be cut back. Since the 80's they have been too high to run the full course.

skicdave

05-30-2006, 11:06 AM

My vote went with Toni. :jumpturn:

I plotted the route with my GPS software for fun. The course from the summit to where it flattens out near Pinkham at the Ellis River is comes in pretty much 3 miles. Toni did the course in 6:29 which would be an overall average of 28mph, obviously a LOT faster up on the summit and through his single arc turn over the headwall. Like RR mentioned, less veggetation around the headwall area, and more snow... but I wonder if the Sherburne was narrower back then... did they have a snowcat up there back in the 30's? With the ultra long skis of the day he probably had no choice whether he could even do check turns down the Sherburne :D . Toni's son did mention to me how long Toni's skiis were.. I might have written it down...

It would certainly be an interesting challenge to see re-tried more than 67 years later. I'm surprised someone hasn't already attempted an 'official' race to match or better Toni's time.

:tmc:

05-30-2006, 12:39 PM

Toni did the course in 6:29 which would be an overall average of 28mph
Really? That seems really slow. I've worn a GPS skiing a few times and know what some different speeds feel like, and 28 mph seems very slow to me. If that's right then I'd think a racer in today's equiptment should be able to do most of the course in the high 40mph's and the headwall would blow maybe a couple min - in which case I might go with option 4 - maybe I'll check the course length/time myself.

M@

05-30-2006, 12:43 PM

Modern gear is up to the challenge...but the stones, my friends it's all about the stones ;)

Toni's gear was not releasable; a bad crash starts with busted limbs on that old gear.

Krietler is faster on Steep terrain than anybody I have seen and Mancini is the most agile fast skier....both of them are in better shape than Toni ever was...

I'll say one thing, the course was narrower down past Hermit lake and Dead Man's has been forever altered. Still, I like our modern types chances.

The Hannenkam presents similar challenges but not the distance and it's a tad shy on the steepness too. Yet, it serves as a comparator run. Racers are faster now than when it was first run....

The FIS wouldn't sanction the course...it would have to be an unsanctioned historic comp type of event.

clg898

05-30-2006, 01:16 PM

Skilasnow

05-30-2006, 02:35 PM

Now... using leather boots, lashed to 8 foot lengths of 2x4... I don't think there's anyone crazy enough to even try...
Plake

As for MPH... 4 miles in 6 minutes = 40 miles in an hour... so Matt must have been averaging closer to 40mph

I have heard it said that he probably topped out at around 80, which even by today's standard is HOLY**** fast

The Hannenkam is also designed and prepared as a race course to increase speeds, Toni was not skiing on such a slick surface.

skicdave

05-30-2006, 07:57 PM

Plake

As for MPH... 4 miles in 6 minutes = 40 miles in an hour... so Matt must have been averaging closer to 40mph

I have heard it said that he probably topped out at around 80, which even by today's standard is HOLY**** fast

The Hannenkam is also designed and prepared as a race course to increase speeds, Toni was not skiing on such a slick surface.

I used my GPS software to plot / measure the route. It's actually just 3 miles. I can't imagine averaging 40 mph overall considering the Sherburne accounts for 2/3rds of the course.

Tommy T

05-30-2006, 08:26 PM

I voted for smashing that old chestnut.

I know several people who have timed themselves faster than Toni's mark and that's with todays overgrown Little Headwall. I've done it in 12 and a half or so on a snowboard, taking it off to cross open water and to jog across the flat top of the Sherburne. And I'm not an especially fast snowboarder compared to good boarder crossers, euro carvers or extreme big mountain rockets.

Tommy T.

chickwhorips

05-30-2006, 08:29 PM

05-30-2006, 09:50 PM

surf88

05-30-2006, 10:40 PM

So far I'm the only one to answer 4. I have no doubt it would be smashed using today's gear, by today's athletes.

Now... using leather boots, lashed to 8 foot lengths of 2x4... I don't think there's anyone crazy enough to even try...
The progression of the sport is more about mental barriers falling then improved equipment. Maybe your right, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone to try it on old equipment for safety sake, but we understand the physics of the sport better now, and mentally are less inhibited. So in theory I think even on old equipment the time would be beat.
Maybe if you got enough :beer: :beer: :beer: in Bode he would try it.

Skilasnow

05-30-2006, 11:37 PM

TommyT: You are a monster! really? 12 minutes including de-boarding for crosses? and flats? WOW!

CWR: an excellent idea

Skicdave: Does your gps account for the change in altitude?, most handhelds don't, so while you may have crossed 3 miles as the crow flies (including turns) it may not account for the 4,000 foot drop (the over-land number). Using Pythagorous, and some slightly adjusted numbers for ease of calculation: 3 miles horizontal, with 4,000 foot drop translates to 3.1+ miles... hmmm, well, given that it isn't a straight diaganol, we'll increase the trip some as well since a wavy curve is always longer than a strait line (at least in the three dimensions we are using, and not including any space/time differentials that may or may not take place on a galactic level).... so let's say 3.4 miles, putting Toni's averagespeed at closer to 32-33mph

ummm... my higher math is done for tonight, either way Toni Matt was going hella-fast, and so was TommyT

How about a T4T American Inferno remake challenge next year? I'm in, with no expectations of winning...

05-31-2006, 07:54 AM

Okay J, That's a good'un...I'm in. Entry fee is the prize pool contribution. I have chosen to contribute a case of good ale...others might choose to make a charitable donation, kick in a 750 of good Scotch or something else of intrinsic or siritual content.

The MWVSP could use some donations as could our site (see, Dave, I didn't forget). The FOTR maybe can't sanction it but they can use donations....

skicdave

05-31-2006, 08:28 AM

You may be right skilas... I would think since these puppies are used for hiking on mountains, not just flats, distance would include vertical as well. Can anyone confirm this? If so I guess we just use triangulation to come up with the correct distance.

Would be fun to see a group get together to re-try the Inferno run... no doubt difficult to get the perfect day weather wise, snow wise and avalanche wise... did they even worry about avalanche danger back then...

05-31-2006, 08:55 AM

... did they even worry about avalanche danger back then...nope, just skied real fast!

Tommy T

05-31-2006, 09:43 AM

My account is posted somewhere in Recent Photos and Reports under the title Tommy T's Inferno Run.

Thinking about it at the time, I just estimated 4 miles and multiplied by 5. 20 mph didn't impress me much.

I was just fast cruising on the Upper Snowfields, then ripped it from the Lip to LR to impress the crowd there. Then I decided to go all the way and got to thinking about the time. I was using Clicker step-in bindings so the two changes weren't long. The drop from above the Cutler to the Hillman Drainage was pretty much a schush through the brush. Then a couple hundred yards of jogging at probably 6 mph took me to the Sherburne. I pushed it as hard as I could down the Sherburne and, based on other timed experiences, was probably averaging about 30 mph for that section -- fast recreational skiing but hardly shocking.

Tommy T.

Affix Snow

05-31-2006, 11:12 AM

Conditions permitting.....Conditions permitting.....Conditions permitting.....

BladeGirl

05-31-2006, 11:55 AM

Hey, how about we put a "challenge" out to the extreme skiing community to see if someone is willing to try to beat this classic time (in the right snow conditions)? Maybe we could get Warren Miller out to film the stunt... or at least one of the local outfits like Meatheads...

I like the idea, but would be afraid of participants injuring nonparticipants who may be skinning up Sherbie or otherwise sliding anywhere in the path of the course. If we're looking to have a record smashed, would need to have plenty of folks w/ radios along the course to keep people out of the way when a skier is coming through.

-BG

Some Good

05-31-2006, 12:53 PM

If someone beats the time will the name of the Toni Matt Club have to be changed? :D

skicdave

05-31-2006, 12:59 PM

If someone beats the time will the name of the Toni Matt Club have to be changed? :D

Ha ha! No way!

Skilasnow

05-31-2006, 01:54 PM

If someone beats the time will the name of the Toni Matt Club have to be changed? :D
Three lashes with a wet noodle, and and wash that mouth out with soap!!!

Tommy T

05-31-2006, 02:09 PM

If someone beats the time will the name of the Toni Matt Club have to be changed? :D

No! There is much more to the Toni Matt story than just the record. It was very cold and extremely windy. Toni had never really skied the mountain and didn't know the route and as a result of mis-judging where the Lip was he unintentionally schussed the steepest part. The race was part of that lost era of Harvard and Dartmouth rich boys and Austrian expats denying that Europe was dragging the world to war while they played in the snow. They created the ethos that is Tuckerman today and Toni was the one who unwittingly set the standard. If Hemingway had stopped by, Sons of Tuckerman would be a world-famous novel.

Toni Matt is a symbol of the culture as much as a holder of a record. That symbol endures.

Tommy T.

awf170

05-31-2006, 04:59 PM

JayTux

05-31-2006, 05:22 PM

About the little headwall... How open was it, was it just like a mini Tucks? This pic is from 2001 and it looks like it is filled in plenty for a fast, easy run through that section.

http://www.tuckerman.org/photos/00-01tuck/pages/image010.htmlhttp://www.tuckerman.org/photos/00-01tuck/images/4-7-01.jpg

Thats a sweet pic, its clearly filled enough for a cruise, though how fast exactly would the snow conditions be? I've skied the little headwall in deeper snow, and it was pretty slow going...Depends on the recent weather I guess.

:)

Skilasnow

05-31-2006, 11:11 PM

Add another ten feet or so...

I revently saw a picture similar to that from the day Toni Matt didn't do it exactly as he had planned, it didn't show that much of the Little Headwall so tough to say for sure...

The Headwall was so loaded you could barely tell there were any rocks at all in the center, even in the chute area. The rocks between Chute and Left were there, but that was about it. You could pick any line you wanted that day, I've never seen Tucks like it and I've never seen a photo like it.

ATP

06-01-2006, 09:30 AM

I voted for matched time, although I should probably have voted foul. The sickboy modern racers get sintered PTEX, so it's only fair that they should have to deal with a grown-in line and global warming. Maybe Bode will be looking for a little PR to prolong his spansered lifestyle...

Welcome to the Mountain Dew American Inferno Challenge. Bode Miller, recently having left the World Cup tour in a multi-national scandal of drunkeness and debauchery inolving several underage members of the Swiss national ski team is returning to his New Hampshire roots in hopes of smashing a record that has stood for over 70 years. [golf announcer sotto voce] Bode is now climbing the famously steep and precarious Tuckermans [sic] Ravine Headwall where every spring, amateur daredevil skiers test their mettle (with mixed success) against the most extreme terrain in the East. Today, Bode will ski from the summit non-stop to Pinkham Ravine, retracing the steps of the infamous Toni Matt, the man whose harrying 6 minute 30 second decscent scared the organizers of the original American Inferno into cancelling the event for all time. Now, [/sotto voce] thanks to the good folks at MOUNTAIN DEW, Bode Miller is trying to, in his words, "accomplish something bigger than winning races on prepared World Cup courses." As always, Bode marches to the beat of a different drummer, and today...

[sotto voce] Bode has reached the summit and pauses a moment to take in the magnificence of the mountains. Of course, he can't see three feet in front of his face, but does that matter to this wild child? No. He clicks into his bindings, points his skis in the general direction of the ravine...

06-01-2006, 09:36 AM

ATP you are killing me...I almost choked trying not to laugh :eek:

skicdave

06-01-2006, 09:57 AM

Ha ha! Good one ATP.

Lookin forward to the rest of the commentary of the race :D

NH_tele

06-01-2006, 01:35 PM

I'm voting for the "smashed" category. Just some numbers:
the Lauberhorn (longest downhill course on the world cup circuit) is 4455 meters long. That works out to just under 3 miles long. The record time for that is 2:24 = average speed of 70 MPH. Now granted that's on a prepared surface, but the average grade is only 15 degrees with a minimum of 6 degrees (vertical drop of 1025m). Those guys are turning too... Mt. Washington summit to Pinkham is only slightly longer but quite a bit more vertical = more potential for speed... and in a day when world cup downhill racers are taking massive air at ~80+ MPH and topping out on some courses in the mid 90s, I can't see them doing too much in the way of speed checking over teh majority of the course length. I think the real question here is who would win between the top extreme skiers (many/most of whom have racing backgrounds) and the top downhill racers... and what gear would be best. I honestly don't know if it would be better to ski modern downhill skis in the 215-220 range (215 is FIS minimum for guys, i'm pretty sure no one's really running much longer than 220s for DH) or really stiff, wide ~190s like a lot of the extreme skiers use.

PWDR8S

06-01-2006, 03:45 PM

ATP - Love that Bode Tux rap... reps to ya!

I voted smashed..... the question remains.... with what parameters are we talking? Anything goes? If so, then a pair of slicked out 215 and plenty of hay bales would do the trick.

Tommy T

06-01-2006, 05:25 PM

...I think the real question here is who would win between the top extreme skiers (many/most of whom have racing backgrounds) and the top downhill racers...

Absolutely!!

For years I've been arguing that the cutting edge of extreme boarders and extreme skiers are the best boarders and skiers, period.

I'll cross East of the Mississippi one more time to see one of them prove it in an Inferno Snowdown.

Tommy T.

06-01-2006, 09:19 PM

Tuckerman Smackdown...watch'em fly off the lip throwing 150 foot tricks

then, the grandaddy of them all...The American Inferno...Dante, lookout these extreme skiers and riders are so hot....they have to do 90 just to cool off!

Without a plastic Jesus bolted to each ski I won't do 90!

Skilasnow

06-01-2006, 11:08 PM

I'm voting for the "smashed" category. Just some numbers:

Excellent points.

I voted :chicken: bcause I just wanted to see what this poll would create for conversation.

1, While I get your point comparing the length of the course and vertical to actual race courses, I think you are discounting the "preparation" of the course too much. We all know how quickly we accelerate, often unintentionally and sometimes with unfortunate results, when we hit a patch of ice.

2. who would do best? Hands down the BC extremers! Without a "prepared" course I think the FIS DHers would be much slower whereas on the "prepared couse", the top exteremers would be a little slower.

3. Equipment is a huge deal... did Toni even have metal edges? NOT, I think.

Really? FIS minimum is 215? I'm a little surprised, I would have thought 200-205 area. On a side note here, the Tuckerman Inferno has a 150 minimum. One guy I saw had dug out a pair of 150 strait skis, vintage c. 1975 out of the town dump for the ski leg, and I quote, "I hope they work for me."

skicdave

06-02-2006, 07:27 AM

Excellent points.

3. Equipment is a huge deal... did Toni even have metal edges? NOT, I think.

And what about those boots and bindings? How much more control do you have compared to going downhill on cross country equipment? So much for ankle support.

Breaking Toni's record doesn't mean a lot when you start comparing equipment. Thats what makes his feat so astonishing.

Maybe we need a 'mini-inferno' down the Sherburne. Some skiers using todays equipment, some skiers on antigue skis. Assuming the skiers had similar abilities, comparing times might give us a sense of how much of a disadvantage Toni had compared to the modern day equipped skier.

ATP

06-02-2006, 09:27 AM

I have to disagree that the so-called extremers as a group are the best skiers in the world, particularly as it relates to an Inferno-type event. To handle the sorts of nasty ruts that build up on a DH course, while travelling at 70+ miles an hour over water-injected white ice, requires a level of athleticism and precision that simply is not required to shoot a powder**** video. I wouldn't be suprised if the world of extreme skiing suffered a population crisis if they lined up for the Hahnenkamm each year.

Remember this is a (hypothetical) race we're talking about here. Racers know how to go fast regardless of the terrain. That is not an issue. Most extreme skiers spend their time looking for style points.

Perhaps this theory will get a test as Rahlves said he intends to venture into extreme skiing as part of his retirement and I wouldn't doubt that it might suit Bode's interests similarly in a few years more.

NH_tele

06-02-2006, 04:35 PM

Interesting points... I think it depends a little bit on who you're talking about too. Does anyone else remember the scene in MSP's Hit List where they have Daren ripping a GS course on some BC couloir? I think that a lot of racers can rip steeps and non-prepped courses a lot better than some people are giving them credit for.

Also, as a FIS racer myself I can attest to the fact that even these "prepared" courses are not flat and perfect...

Personally I could see someone like Jeremy Nobis (who was on the US ski team for a while... i can't remember if he had world cup starts or not) doing really well in this kind of race... but I think anyone of the top world cup skiers, especially the speed skiers (DH, SG) would also do well. For me, the true impressiveness of Toni Matt's feat is not the time alone, but the fact that he skied that fast on the gear of the time.

PS- Skilasnow there are actually a couple different sets of FIS minimums. The ones that i'm bound by are for general FIS (stuff like Eastern Cups and I *believe* NORAMs as well). For men's skis:
SL: 165
GS: 185 -5cm tolerance (don't ask why... i really don't know)
SG: 205 -5 cm tolerance
DH: 215

World cup has slightly different rules... off the top of my head I think they just do away with the minimum tolerances (effectively making the GS & SG minimums 5 cms longer), but I'm not absolutely sure of that...

Skilasnow

06-03-2006, 12:13 AM

I think that a lot of racers can rip steeps and non-prepped courses a lot better than some people are giving them credit for.

Heck Yeah, They can rip 'em up like nobodies business. I just think that the difference is a little bit less small. That the extremers ( I really do hate that term... hmmm BCers doesn't quite do it justce... ...anyway...), as a group, would outski the racers, as a group.

Skilasnow

06-03-2006, 12:54 AM

I like this conversation...

Let's assume we could put on a new American Inferno, what would be the guidelines?

Let's assume a few things, ie, it is sanctioned by the Forrestry Service, MWVSP, AMC, and anyone else that would have something to say about it.

1. All participants must carry ALL their gear, food, and water up on foot from Pinkham, in the spirit of Toni's time. Obviously Toni didn't ski down with a pack on, so that would have to be worked out.

2. The Little Headwall -> Sherburn -> Pinkham would be closed for the race, duh!

3. All participants must ski the course within a week of the race. (While this obviously gives them an advantage over Toni Matt, we must consider their safety.)

4. All participants must wear beacons.

5. Participants may use any choice of gear they wish, no restrictions.

6. Markers would be placed as in Toni's time, with the exception that a "gate, a very wide gate, would mark the sluice-lip-headwall and a general swath through the bowl to a gate above Little Headwall, to ensure that they all go down somewhere in that area. (This is more for allowing other skiing to be done by the usual Tucks crowd.) The two gates MUST be skied through.

7. This would be a charity event, all participants must raise $10,000 each, to be donated as follows: 15% (total 60%) to the favorite charity of the top four racers by class; Men's/Women's Skiers, Men's/Women's Boarders; 10% to MWVSP, 10% to MWO and 10% to the organizer's choice, the last 10% (give or take, depending on sponsorship, etc., to pay for everything, leftovers to some local youth program or something.)

06-03-2006, 10:13 AM

The participants would, under that scheme have extra motivation to win. Yet they would represent the Gold standard of finanical status and charisma...leaving most of us out of the running. Perhaps 10 contestants?

A Silver standard (5000USD) would do likewise, but swell the field to maybe 40*

A Bronze standard, say 1000 bucks raised, would still be right at the maximum amount I have ever raised....maybe we get 100 folks overall*

Awards for participation could contain a small insignia made of the metals by fundraiser's standard with the four top finishers receiving rings having the insignia in each standard.

The goldsmith my wife and I go to has reasonable prices and no doubt many of us know of good craftsmen with nice prices. We could work this out.

* assuming the event survives its first couple of annual runnings.