Different angles?

[Mumster]

I'm curious to see who has experience with varying their base and side angles underfoot v. the tips and tails. :skis: In particular, has anyone tried increasing side angle under foot and base angle at the tips and tails to maximize grip and turnability? And, what would be the disadvantage of doing that?

What base and side angles does everyone use?

[NtrentT]

Sorry cant say that I have, I personally dont think it would change much.
Thats just my 2 cents though.

Good luck in your quest for knowledge

[SkiStooge]

Depends. I am running about 88 and 1/2 degrees of side and approx 1/2 degree of bevel on my Fischers. I used to run 87 and 3/4 bevel on a pair of Salomon Force 9's that I had. The Fischers will adapt to just about anything that I have been able to throw at them so far. Excellent ice hold, forgiving in turn transition without trying to "lock" the edge to the terrain. I found that, at 87 and 3/4bevel on the Force 9's, they tended to get "grabby" at times. Seems to be that around 88 to 89 and 1/2 degree bevel is my personal choice. Sometimes boils down to trial and error. Find a friendly ski shop that will tune to different specs and try a few. :skistooge:

[SkiStooge]

BUT I've never tried varying tip/underfoot/tail cuts. Might be fun to try (have to be on old skis though...might end up cutting too much off to correct bad decisions and have to trash out good equiptment) :skistooge:

[DMC]

Is this like detunig?
I used to always have to detune my skis after they were raced tuned by a friend... Took a stone to the tips and tails and get rid of that razor blade edge...

[Mumster]

DMC - Detuning reduces grab by blunting the tip and tail edge. I'm contemplating hypertuning :skiplow: to maximize the grip underfoot and glide/turnability at the ski ends. I've heard some people do it -> with all the ski fanatics on T4T I bet someone here has tied it.

[NH_tele]

De-tuning on the tips & tails is just a "myth" left over from the pre-shaped ski era. With shaped skis, the sidecut allows you to carve using the whole length of the edge, and the tip and tail don't get caught in the carve the way they could on a straight ski. Therefore, with shaped skis, the detuned tip & tail is totally unnessesary, and just makes for a less sharp ski.

As for angles, when I alpine raced, I used to use a base angle of 1, and a side of 3 on my Atomics (shaped). This angle was worn out more quickly, but when they were sharp, they were SHARP (higher angles generally mean sharper skis, but wear off faster). Since I sharpened my skis at least once a week, it didn't really matter.

I think that, unless you are racing, tuning doesn't matter too much; just get 'em sharp when they feel dull, and you're basically all set.

[Jolly J]

I don't pay too much attention to tuning. When the ski stops acting like it should, I buy the ski shop a box of donuts or a six pack of beer, go for breakfast come back over and pick em up and they are good to go. My RPM's that I first rode in the end of January were only factory tuned, nothing after that and I still felt like I had tonnes of edge left at the end of the year.

[Mumster]

Given the variability of the terrain you ski, I'm surprised none of you use edge adjustment to help deal with the changing conditions you face. What do you do when TR :tucks: is bulletproof? :confused:

Maybe you ski so well you don't need the extra edge that edge can provide. :D

[DMC]

Mumster:
What do you do when TR :tucks: is bulletproof? Don't climb up... :) Seriosly...
I was up in march once and it was to icey to ride... No problem... The risk you take...

Last April I made the mistake of doing almost the entire length of Hillmans and it was frozen solid... It really thought the sunbaked snow was nice - but it was "setup like a bollin' pin" I think I lost a filling coming down.. I climbed the left side in the shade cause the steps were there.

Never again...

[Jolly J]

It's amazing when the sun goes over the mountain how quickly it cures.

[DMC]

I'm usually the one who likes to get the F out before the sun goes away..
But THIS snow... Was perfect the day before - It must have been a gorgeous day.. Soft - sweet - sun baked snow... That night it got cold quick and that soft - sweet snow froze in place....
It STILL look soft and sweet... Frozen solid..
If you looked at it - it still looked exactly like it did before the freeze.. I called it Walt Disney snow...

[Jolly J]

DMC:
I called it Walt Disney snow... That's a new one for the snow dictionary. I like it

[Mumster]

DMC:
Last April I made the mistake of doing almost the entire length of Hillmans and it was frozen solid... Ah yes, my knee is reminding me of that fateful morning a couple months ago at Mt Hood.

[NH_tele]

I've made it as far as Hojo's on 3-5 trips and decided to turn back because of un-favorable (icy & crusty) conditions. When skiing something that steep, it just isn't worth the risk to try to ski it when it's really bad. My first time up to the bowl last year (2003) was in mid-March, and it got too cold overnight, and didn't warm up enough the next day. I started to hike up Hillman's, but the semi-soft snow that I'd noticed on the bottom quickly became bullet-proof. My original intention had been to hike up to either the base of the "Y", or the cut-off to that snow field (right below Duchess), but the conditions didn't even warrant that. I just made a ledge among the small trees, and put on my skis as well as I could (putting on tele skis on a steep and icy slope with not much ledge is one of the worst parts of the sport). It was basically survival skiing down Hillman's. I took a little break at Hojo's after I got back, then, not to be defeated, headed up to a short snowfield almost directly under Lion's Head that looked like it had been in the sun. It wasn't very long, but it was nice corn, so I got 4 or 5 runs in on that, then headed down the Sherburne trail.

Bottom line- If the snow's not good, don't push it in the Ravine.

I tune my own skis, a habit left over from my racing. My race skis were tuned at least once a week (I actually built a pretty nice tuning bench in the basement, and got some wood & a wood stove to help make it more livable).

[targheehucker]

Mumster--

hectic work week=delayed response. IMHO going back to my race/shop days, detuning is done for very good reasons. The ski gets very squirelly if you keep an edge at the tip. You can really tweak a knee badly from this. Tuning skis with different base angles doesnt really make all that much difference unless
a) you really know how to properly make turns on edge and can apply constant stiff boot pressure
b) you use different angles on different skis

for example if you are going to put a sharper angle like a 2-4 side bevel it would be best for GS skis because of their smooth longer turn arc. A smaller side bevel and 1/2 degree base bevel (I wouldnt suggest a base bev for GS) is best for SL skis for quick turn initiation. Though the past 2 generations of race skis I have been out of the loop on tuning - they are getting crazy with geometries soon it will be like roller blades on snow.
Anyway I am curious why you brought this up - do you want an easier turn initiation, maybe you dont have the right ski for this. I would say be cautious if you are going to do that stuff to your tips though,especially you knees. And if you do it all the way down to the tails you will "wash out" of most turns.
Though, psychologically if it works it works so good luck.

I just read NHtele's comments and I agree, when I say detune the tip I mean the forward part that makes contact with he snow, not the huge showel thats always off the ground.

[Mumster]

targheehucker:
Mumster-- Anyway I am curious why you brought this up - do you want an easier turn initiation, maybe you dont have the right ski for this. Targeehucker - Thanks for the info. I brought it up only because it seems logical to maximize grip underfoot and turnability at the end of the ski. But, if it was useful someone here would have given it the thumbs up.
In real life, I detune -> ? Maybe because I use race stock -> they grab like mad otherwise. But, a little detuning and they are total bliss :skiplow: