poaching [Archive] - T4T Forums - Tuckerman Ravine NH

ptex1.1

11-16-2005, 08:21 PM

Some places are out of contol with this stuff case in point last year Gunstock were I am a pass holder not because I like the mountain but because it has a great race program for my 6 yo anyway, powder day no lifts running above mid mountain. I hike up to the top and ski down with a bunch of ppl behind me I go to do it again and ski patrol is standing there waiting for me telling me that I will have my pass pulled if I do again. I think thats dumb the web site said all the trails were open but when we get to the Mtn the upper lifts are closed due to high wind which I can understand but why cant I hike and ski a open trail? lame. Then I was showing my little girl a nice steep hiking trail that was tight and skiable. I have her ski down ahead of me so she gets to the bottom and I can hear telling someone that her dad is coming I pop out of woods and she talking to ski patrol who tells me that any trail not on the map is OB and again Im told I will lose my pass and hers shes 6? Funny thing is that my friends who are patrolers at other Mtns such as Jay would have went with us or showed us better staches. I guess it depends on the area. To me a rope is for other ppl not me for me its a access gate. Unless an avalanch danger is the reason for the rope.

Sledhaulingmedic

11-16-2005, 09:38 PM

Patrols are extensions of the area management. SOme places are overboard with "Ski cops" and risk management driven policies. Other places don't close trails because they can't afford rope or the management wants to claim XX% of terrain open that day. (I don't know anyplace like that :doh: )

A legitimate concern is that "Closed" terrain is not swept. Probably not a good place to ski alone ;) . In localities where Reckless Hiker/Reckless skier laws are in place, this might also get expensive.

Litmus test: Are you being responsible for your actions? Answer yes? The who cares what a self-appointed ski Nazi says. (Did I just say that? Damn! Good batch of crack!)

Skilasnow

11-16-2005, 11:35 PM

I'm a poacher. I poach much, I like to poach, and I poach well and responsibly.

However, there are ropes that I don't duck:

If Cannon closes Kinsman, I figure it's pretty sketchy, and I trust them. If Mad River puts a rope up in some trees, it's either totally treacherous or they are trying to preserve the environment for future better tree skiing ... .

There is another pertinent part of responsible poaching: who might follow your tracks? Some yahoo that thinks they can do anything you can do? Some kid that may not know better?

Places like Loon and Gunstock have good reason to be strict. Talk to them if they stop you, respect their point of view, don't be indignant, and even discuss possible ways that you can poach without impinging their concerns, they may just say, "Well, You are not supposed to do that ;) , have a nice day."

Justin

11-17-2005, 10:27 AM

There is another pertinent part of responsible poaching: who might follow your tracks?

This topic has ben discussed before, I think *may* disagree here. My opinion is simple.

Some yahoo that thinks they can do anything you can do?
His problem! certainly not mine. Why should MY privileges be revoked/constrained b/c of someone's lack of good judgment?

Some kid that may not know better?

See above. In some case they are too young to make intelligent decisions -- Parents share some responsibility here.

Affix Snow

11-17-2005, 11:25 AM

You guys ever have a French Toast Bagel? Man them things are GOOD!

....sorry ;)

Justin

11-17-2005, 11:46 AM

You guys ever have a French Toast Bagel? Man them things are GOOD!

....sorry ;)

I hate the French... and their toast...

Jolly J

11-17-2005, 11:47 AM

His problem! certainly not mine. Why should MY privileges be revoked/constrained b/c of someone's lack of good judgment?

Which has now become the patrollers problem. The Patroller probably had it closed for a reason and now he has to go rescue a S.P.O.R.E. who didn't know any better but saw someone rip it up and thinks it looks like fun.

Also as Sled said closed terrain is not swept. A couple years ago we had closed down an area of the mountain for night skiing once everything is swept. Many of the patrols shifts are done leaving a much smaller crew behind. In this case someone ducked a rope, and crashed badly causing a head injury. No one went looking for him for almost an hour when the patrol was alerted. The patrollers then went throught the fun task of resweeping the closed terrain in the dark. When they finally found the guy he was hypothermic and drifting in and out of consciousness with very weak breathing and pulse. We thought we were going to loose him trying to get him off the slope. There was a rookie patroller working on him with me and I know that accident really affected him personally.

Have I ever skied a closed trail....yup...will I again...yup. I think SkiLasNiceguy said it best with don't give the patroller who is doing their job lip. Granted some patrollers power trip, but most are pretty cool guys that get a blast out of getting paid to ski and help people.

Justin

11-17-2005, 12:26 PM

Which has now become the patrollers problem.

I think your spot on Jolly and I couldn't agree more. I truly feel for the patrollers in this case b/c they are the ones who shoulder the burden... But again, I don't think think it's the "poacher" that has placed that responsibility on the patrols shoulder -- it's the skier who got hurt. Just like in the BC skiers should assume ALL risks.

It's a really pet peeve of mine when some gets hurt and tries to fling blame around.... i.e You coffee is Too hot and I burnt my self, see you in court. I slipped on ice in your parking lot and broke my assbone, see you in court. I knowingly skied a closed trail and got hurt, Its the mountains fault??? or better yet! the person who did it before me and didn't hurt -- but it sure as hell is my fault.

Just frosts my A$$ that's all.

PWDR8S

11-17-2005, 01:15 PM

I hate the French... and their toast...
Trust me the French hate you too..... and they specifically named you when I was talking with them last week. http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

11-17-2005, 01:18 PM

French toast is incomplete without a poached egg and French Roast Coffee!

11-17-2005, 01:20 PM

going to breakfast without a poached egg is like going to war without your accordion...

Jolly J

11-17-2005, 01:40 PM

Just like in the BC skiers should assume ALL risks.

But in this case it's not the BC, it's privately owned land that the land owner is charging you to use it. And thus the responsibility to keep the person safe is in the burden of those providing the service. And lawyers gotta eat too.

Again, I'm personally not against poaching, I just see both points of view very clearly and the not so clear lines in the middle.

Affix Snow

11-17-2005, 01:45 PM

going to breakfast without a poached egg is like going to war without your accordion...

Taking the French to War is like Deer Hunting with an accordian.

-Stormin' Norman Schwarzkoff

11-17-2005, 02:08 PM

But in this case it's not the BC, it's privately owned land that the land owner is charging you to use it. And thus the responsibility to keep the person safe is in the burden of those providing the service. And lawyers gotta eat too.

Again, I'm personally not against poaching, I just see both points of view very clearly and the not so clear lines in the middle.Ski areas on National Forests (or other public lands) have an extra issue. Some claim they can stop folks earning their turns. Usually they loose that if it gets past the magistrate's ruling.

Leaseholders operate as representatives of the owners on private land, but the people's lands have a completely seperate access standing. The conditions of tresspass have to be spelled out in the forest regs and the lease agreement.

If that land is not restricted and it's not a condition of the ticket purchase...it's 100% legal to wander in every such case. It's still a rotten trick to stretch the patrol too thin and that's reason enough to not poach.

Self rescue is the first and best response anyway.

Jolly J

11-17-2005, 02:31 PM

Self rescue is the first and best response anyway.
Agreed...wait a minute, then I'd be out of a job. :p

I didn't think about National Forest so points very well taken. Then again if you are poaching chances are you rode the lift to get there. In my situation the ski area is on our property so that's the approach I was taking.

PWDR8S

11-17-2005, 02:34 PM

I'm under the fence on this one.......

What is poaching? Willfully disrespecting the guidance given at a resort by the ropes closing off sections or trails? Or are we referring to going slackcountry or even BC on private lands.

Understanding the plight both sides are in... usually I do not poach and respect the imaginary walls. That's why I've taken to BC to get away from those politics but inevitably I still have to deal with landowners occasionally about access, etc.

Resort poaching..... I know ropes are up for good reason in many cases but I find myself going slackcountry (outtabounds) in various places because I've come to know the terrain and such. I always take full responsability for MY ACTIONS. In Vail for instance, I know several places that may be roped off but can be accessed through the trees below the 'bare shoulder or spots' warranting the closures and access to the BC in spots where no sane person should be.

Having patrolled before and my love of skiing, I respect the directives given by the patrollers for the most part. As I'm sure they want to open as much as possible that is considered safe for the general public.

RR made some good points and I'll definitely research it for my situation. I'm up here next to Mount Sunapee Resort which is a privately run ski area now that leases part of the state park. I've been yelled at for skinning up and skiing their groomers and even the trees a few times. My reply is that it is OUR STATE PROPERTY and I have the right to be there. They seem to think otherwise and I think they would claim that as poaching. More research is warranted because I have other friends that join me there.

Sledhaulingmedic

11-17-2005, 03:05 PM

Our motto: "Ski a closed trail, see you in the spring!"

Poached eggs belong on Green Chile Enchilladas. Nothing French about it.

What do you call an accordian player with an answering machine? Optimist.

Hear about the accordian player who left his accordian in his car? He cam back and it was broken into. Someone put another accordian in it.

PWDR8S

11-17-2005, 03:17 PM

Hear about the accordian player who left his accordian in his car? He cam back and it was broken into. Someone put another accordian in it.
The HORROR! The HORROR! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

Rider.Steve

11-17-2005, 03:24 PM

Just frosts my A$$ that's all.

Americain Poosay - yu aire tooo teemeed to saye "Ass".

Bon soir,

Etiene

11-17-2005, 03:52 PM

I do it.

You do it, you know you do it.

Everybody does it.

Here's a pitcher of me doing it:
http://timefortuckerman.com/photopost/data/500/7DCP_0157-med.JPG

Ski patrollers have to tell you not to do it - they put up the rope, it's implied they don't want you going there. What kind of penalty - that's up to them, and they are usually told by the resort - and they have that authority cause they sold you ticket.

M@

ATP

11-17-2005, 04:02 PM

The TTips thread definitely shows the difference b/w East & West. The perspectives are different for good reason (aptly illustrated by Sled's perspective as an Eastern patroller). While avis, potential cliffage and broad expanses of wilderness await misguided Westerners, the dangers in the East to capable skiers, who know the area in question are primarily to skis. As others have said in virtual teleland, don't do it alone, don't put a patroller on the spot by ducking a rope in front of them, and don't get hurt or if you do, at least be able to self-rescue.

I'm up here next to Mount Sunapee Resort which is a privately run ski area now that leases part of the state park. I've been yelled at for skinning up and skiing their groomers and even the trees a few times. My reply is that it is OUR STATE PROPERTY and I have the right to be there. They seem to think otherwise and I think they would claim that as poaching. More research is warranted because I have other friends that join me there.

At Mighty Wawawachusett, the state lease specifically forbids uphill travel during open hours. Thus, I and some cohorts regularly get our morning exercise by skinning the groomed (or occasional pow) on our way to work. Check out the lease, you'll find the terms under which NH governs use of the trails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skilasnow
"There is another pertinent part of responsible poaching: who might follow your tracks?"

This topic has ben discussed before, I think *may* disagree here. My opinion is simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skilasnow
"Some yahoo that thinks they can do anything you can do?"

His problem! certainly not mine. Why should MY privileges be revoked/constrained b/c of someone's lack of good judgment?

Unfortunately, that doesn't work for the patroller who has to clean up the mess, when Joey Gaper gets himself in trouble following your sucker tracks. I consider it my job to make a discrete entry/exit. Sure my tracks may be followed, but at least they shouldn't be obvious. BMP are to hold a safety meeting at a discrete wooded location with tracks heading to open terrain, before single filing into the closed terrain.

11-17-2005, 04:20 PM

I do it....You do it, you know you do it....Everybody does it.....Here's a pitcher of me doing it:...M@Just don't doit in the road!

DMC

11-17-2005, 04:30 PM

I poach trail all the time - but I know my home mountain inside and out..

If patrol closes it because it's an icey day - I don't poach..
If a closed trail is sitting there getting snowmaking and I know it's top to bottom snow... - I poach it - but I let patrol go first...

I also poach during snow storms.... Trails that I know I can do but the paying public can't because of snow depths...

I'd never poach if I didnt know the trail well...

elwood

11-17-2005, 04:41 PM

Just don't doit in the road!
Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Castlerock

11-17-2005, 04:46 PM

We had a big thread on "rope ducking" a while ago. I couldn't find it with a search. Can anyone else link to it?

11-17-2005, 04:51 PM

Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?Because unlike the ski patrol, the cops will make us pay and pay more!

PWDR8S

11-17-2005, 04:58 PM

Is there such a thing as power poaching?

Bannick

11-17-2005, 05:15 PM

Is there such a thing as power poaching?

four burners on your stove...4 eggs per pot = 16 poached eggs...that is power poaching!

I have done it but only if I know the reasons behind the closure and the trail or area I am going into.

PWDR8S

11-17-2005, 05:29 PM

DMC

11-17-2005, 06:00 PM

This is beginning to sound like an online confessional....

Oh Father Ullr, please forgive me for I have trespassed... and found an incredible line of fresh snow! What a time! Woo Hoo!

We know you do it. You can come out of your closet now.

Muah hah hah ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!

We will be burning skis this weekend.... Our anual ULLR sacrifice..

sidenote- Did you see Southpark last night?
Tom Cruise was hiding in a closet - And everyone was yelling at him to come out of the closet... Funny....

11-17-2005, 06:02 PM

sidenote- Did you see Southpark last night?
I liked the "This is Really what Scientologists Believe" - and the whole ending of "Sue me... come on... SUE ME!" i.e. south park begging the scientologists to sue them.

M@

Justin

11-17-2005, 07:03 PM

We had a big thread on "rope ducking" a while ago. I couldn't find it with a search. Can anyone else link to it?

Here it is...

http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1913&highlight=rope+duck

I took the same stance here as well. At least I'm consistent if nothing else...
:rolleyes:

Jolly J

11-17-2005, 09:01 PM

I took the same stance here as well. At least I'm consistent if nothing else...
:rolleyes:
Me too...even quoted the same incident. Weird.

Skilasnow

11-18-2005, 01:38 AM

Taking the French to War is like Deer Hunting with an accordian.

-Stormin' Norman Schwarzkoff

Try telling that to the Brits in the American Revolution...

Skilasnow

11-18-2005, 01:50 AM

I forget now and am not going back to check but someone said something like "If someone follows my tracks and ****s up, its not my fault"

I agree. And they said that in response to my previus post. But I also believe that our actions, as individuals, have impact on others, and while we may not be, nor should be, held responsible for their actions, there are times that we ought consider what our actions may precipitate. I do not suggest that you not poach for this reason, but consider how, where, and when, in order to protect your fellow human

- skilas

Castlerock

11-18-2005, 08:04 AM

Here it is...

http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1913&highlight=rope+duck

I took the same stance here as well. At least I'm consistent if nothing else...
:rolleyes:

Thanks Justin, I am still baffled at how I couldn't find it.

It is worth re-reading as there was some serious thought in the post.

And to sum it up......Get yours,....but do it in a way that makes it easier for the rest. Patrol, newbies, kids etc.

11-18-2005, 09:34 AM

Likewise, thanks Justin.

On reading that I said: Consider this....people follow tracks, some do so most unwisely. Let's not bait the hook at ski areas, lets go find places where only the mad would venture anyway and do a little prep work!
It seems I have been taking my own advice...I will go for Gnarl Factor this season. Now where can I score some used hockey pads???

sloppy_steering

11-20-2005, 11:05 PM

Skilasnow

11-21-2005, 01:00 AM

I'm on the ski patrol at Blue Mtn. in PA. Poachers don't really bother me so much as their attitude when they're caught. I'm not up there to hassle anyone, but I can't count the number of times I've gotten swore at, yelled at, lied too. If you get caught please don't bust my balls. Rules is rules and at least in the U.S. if you bought a lift ticket, your most likely on private property.
Talk to them if they stop you, respect their point of view, don't be indignant, and even discuss possible ways that you can poach without impinging their concerns, they may just say, "Well, You are not supposed to do that , have a nice day."

exactly my point

Affix Snow

11-21-2005, 08:05 AM

I'm on the ski patrol at Blue Mtn. in PA. Poachers don't really bother me so much as their attitude when they're caught. I'm not up there to hassle anyone, but I can't count the number of times I've gotten swore at, yelled at, lied too. If you get caught please don't bust my balls. Rules is rules and at least in the U.S. if you bought a lift ticket, your most likely on private property.

OK. Sloppy.

I will look for you this year at Blue and when you catch me poaching ill be nice :) and you wont take my overpriced season pass.

woodstockloafa

11-21-2005, 09:28 PM

Poaching in avy prone terrain is just dumb. Needs no further explanation. Out east, I'd say it depends. Sugarloaf had lots of "poachable" trees and other paths/crosscuts that weren't posted but known by locals and folks who knew the mountain. They opened a lot of them, or just gave them names so they have more runs now...
Anyhow, ducking a rope out east means you'll probably need to fix your boards after you ski. Either that or you'd be better off with crampons and an ice axe. If you don't know the area well enough, don't do it. If you know the area well, you probably know if ski patrol will nab you or not. If you do get nabbed, you asked for it. The signs say so. Most of the time, there's a good reason for a rope, like perhaps saving your arse.

Rider.Steve

01-09-2006, 06:01 PM

Here's a virgin-poacher tale (no, retune your dirty minds, it's not about that).

I was at Waterville this weekend for my younger son's youth hockey tournament (received an unexpected phone call from RR on friday night to discuss Unibroue beer selections, a very nice surprise).

The tournament was generally a tough one for the Peewee team, but this story starts on saturday morning: our heroes' game was a 6 a.m. and we were free for the remainder of the day. It was bluebird at Waterville with 5 inches of fresh or so, plus additional snow from the day before. A no-brainer really, plus Jesse had his new Christamas snowboard, so off to the mountain we went.

Early in the day I took the triple up with a friend to get to the top of the steeper terrain on the west side of the mountain. Three runs surround that chair: looking up the left one was open and groomed with traffic, center one was closed with mucho snowmaking, the last (Lower Bobbies') was painfully closed, with a foot of natural snow lying virtually untouched over 800 feet of vert or so and probably a couple of hundred feet wide. While in the lift line I received advice from a ski instructor, in the form of "yes, it's closed, but if I were you I would duck it." Hard to ignore such advice. Naturally if caught, we never had this conversation.

So on the next run and in full view of the lifties at the bottom, Joe and I ducked the rope and quickly got to work surfing this field of powder. It was light and fluffy and my board threw up a palpable roostertail as the fishtail sank into the snow and the hull nose planed up over the fresh. Ahh, such a nice feeling....like ***. We did not waste time admiring our lines, but quickly departed the slope, ducking left into the woods to evade any potential captor.

Meanwhile my son was running free with his hockey mates elsewhere on the mountain, but I did catch up with him at lunch and we toured the mountain together afterwards. It was in comparing notes while on the lifts that I mentioned that my friend and I had gloriously poached that closed trail. "You did what?" "We ducked a rope and rode a closed trail."

Many questions followed, including discussion of the issues involved with poaching, safety concerns, potential penalties if caught, etc. "So, do you want to do it with me? Last run." This offer threw him - I was suggesting that we break a rule together! A total rarity.

At the appointed juncture, we approached the rope suspicously and he looked around - no one there to disagree, but he hesitated. Taboos do work. "So are we going to go or not?" He looked around again, ducked it and down we went, this time stopping at the top of the steepest part to get a luscious look at the powder field below. He started and led the way, finding his way to the fresh with every turn and traverse, riding with the flat of his board like he learned in Utah and at Jay last year. I played around behind, cut across his lines and enjoyed the cushy ride. Again, no one bothered to punish us for our stolen pleasures.

He returned to the lodge with stories for his mates of his plundered powder, a virgin poacher no longer.

Steve

Addendum:

Sadly, I was informed on the same day by a ski patroller on the lift, that Waterville now uses the UPC code on the lift ticket to track caught poachers, and that there is reciprocity between NH resorts so that repeat offenders may be barred from purchasing lift tickets there and elsewhere. The frontier shrinks a bit further.

01-09-2006, 06:34 PM

Waterville now uses the UPC code on the lift ticket to...
The Universal Poacher Code eh?

M@

ILOVE2SKI

01-09-2006, 06:53 PM

Huh I didn't get that last part. But anyway I do poach on occasion. Here is something that one of Wildcat's workers posted on the subject matter:
This is an interesting thread.

Fascinating that folks want to ski on "closed" trails just because the redcoats are out there.

The redcoats aren't out there because they WANT to be skiing concrete, mashed, chopped, ice, manmade wet whalebacks or to find out whether they have a shot at getting to an incident and successfully bringing down the trauma sled. They are skiing it because they HAVE to KNOW what is there and whether its "good to go".

"Looks like pow" well yeah, It CAN LOOK like Pow, but will it SKI like pow?

I know, I know..... "Ski it if you can" has an incredible effect on adrenaline,, and " IF THEY CAN, SO CAN I" is another power surge. Some folks will always go there.

If you get stuck, you'll have to walk your own a$$ out and down. No Whine.

If you get caught and penalized, No Whine. Ducked the rope with full understanding.

If you get hurt and need Patrol services, you'd best be prepared for the wait and the questions and perhaps a bigger bill than your lift ticket/pass for rescue. Not to mention that if it takes a half-hour for Ski Patrol to find you, another half hour for them to get you down to base, your golden hour in trauma is used up before you ever see the ambulance or the ER trauma doc.

OTOH, if you go OB and no one skis with you or keeps track of you, the only trace of you might be the ski bag you left in the lodge, which will simply go to lost and found, and be a clue that you were there at some point and never came out.

So many people leave/forget so much stuff. Lost and found isn't the best indicator that there might be someone out there in trouble.

Last year a tour bus arrived at Wildcat, discharged 39 passengers, and only 38 presented for the return trip. The missing person's effects were located, but the bus left "ON Schedule" for the 38 paid passengers, and without passenger #39.

That left Wildcat on the hook for the missing person and forced Wildcat to call State Police, who had the nod to call Mike an Diane Pelchat and cascade the Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue. Also necessary to call Joe Gill with the National Forest Service and report the incident.

The OB skier was picked up by a groomer sometime after 7 pm near the pumphouse closest to the Thompson Brook trailhead, where there was a prominent rope and a trail closed sign.

All was well in health for the OB skier. He had all his toes and fingers, but he took a hit for overnite accomodations and a full fare ride for bus service No Conway to Boston.

Wildcat had to pay for Ski patrol and guest services staff to remain on site and on payroll for State Police depostion because this particular person decided to ski OB.

He rescued himself, but left a pair of Rossi 205's somewhere in Thompson Brook. Phone contact is now..... he wants his Rossies back. Send Ski Patrol in there to snag the skiis he abandoned when he was in over his head, after ducking the rope.

I'm all for customer service, but this one has " chutzpah" written all over it.

If you want to ski closed trails , or follow redcoats, thats up to you

take your risks,

Breeze

What is Wildcat's policy on ducking ropes? Can they do anything since it is WMNF Land?

PLytheman

01-10-2006, 07:06 PM

Only time I ducked rope was up at Loon. Conditions were the usual NE Ski Hill crap, but there below us on the lift was the most magnificent looking powder. Snowmaking must have been going on all day and there were only a few tracks threw it. It was a unanimous decision and we hit it. Best powder I've ever ridden at a resort, only powder better than that was recently on the sherby.

The whole ride down there were a bunch of kids on the lift above our heads, part of the jr ski team whatever that they had going on up there. They were all yelling things like "You're not supposed to be on that trail" "you're gonna get in trouble" "I'm telling ski patrol" What the hell is wrong with these kids? Is this like the '1984' generation of Orwellian Tattle-Tails? Well, we had a good laugh about it working our way down the trail, then came out onto an open trail by hopping down a little foot and a half drop where the closed trail was supposed to bear left. As soon as my board lands I hear someone yelling at us. Just our luck, that jr ski team was running races 150 feet down the trail to the left and 2 ski patrol were standing right there watching us emerge from the closed trail. Great....

They pulled our Threedom Passes, well, my two friends threedoms and the threedom pass I was borrowing from someone else (just to add more insult to injury). The two ski patrollers were playing good cop bad cop with us and it was rediculous. I understand that we broke mountain rules, but it was the only actual snow on the hill and in great ridable condition, IMHO. The only thing they could really say against us was 'There's snow making equipment all over the place (the edges of the trail) and we could have hit them or broke them'. Complete over reaction, if you ask me.

I can completely respect Ski Patrols and their bosses not wanting people to ride on closed trails as its a huge liability, but in our case we were right under a running lift on a relatively short trail in the middle of the mountain - not exactly out of the way.

PWDR8S

01-10-2006, 07:12 PM

....... but in our case we were right under a running lift on a relatively short trail in the middle of the mountain - not exactly out of the way.
That my friend was THE big mistake. Poaching is supposed to be done on the sly with less peeps witnessing the activity. In this case, you guys were begging to be bagged. I hear ya, on how it really sux when you see this beautiful snow being wasted but you're not supposed to touch it! Frustrating I tell ya, frustratin'! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

01-10-2006, 07:21 PM

Some Good

01-10-2006, 10:58 PM

The only thing they could really say against us was 'There's snow making equipment all over the place (the edges of the trail) and we could have hit them or broke them'. Complete over reaction, if you ask me.

One of the big problems is the folks who ski closed trails with snow making on it, and all the lemmings who follow, is they often ski right over the hoses. Most hoses cost $300.00 a piece. One ski edge can total a hose with one pass on what you thought was a flat base. The other problem is the snowmaking employee coming up on a snowmobile from beneath a roll over or around a blind turn. I know a lot of snow makers, groomers, ski patrol, etc... who have nearly smoked skiers on closed trails. And believe me, you don't want to see an accident involving a head on with a snowmobile or a groomer. Not pretty.

My 2 cents.

01-10-2006, 11:51 PM

I poach lift lines- but not until after lunch, and not with a pass.

Not to sure now-a-days with the UPC (universal poacher codes) on the passes, but a couple weeks back at Killingtime we paid cash so I don't think we were trackable.

M@I was there and it was the best stuff all day...and we were looking for that dropped glove, honest we were looking....and it was right under a lift....the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the Quad was especially heartwarming :D

PLytheman

01-11-2006, 02:30 PM

One of the big problems is the folks who ski closed trails with snow making on it, and all the lemmings who follow, is they often ski right over the hoses. Most hoses cost $300.00 a piece. One ski edge can total a hose with one pass on what you thought was a flat base. The other problem is the snowmaking employee coming up on a snowmobile from beneath a roll over or around a blind turn. I know a lot of snow makers, groomers, ski patrol, etc... who have nearly smoked skiers on closed trails. And believe me, you don't want to see an accident involving a head on with a snowmobile or a groomer. Not pretty.

My 2 cents.

Point taken! While I see nothing wrong with harmless powder runs, I dont want to be wrecking the mountain's equipment. Didn't realize the hoses would break that easy.

Having the pass hanging on my jacket was a complete lack of foresight. But now I've learned better!

And I could care less about all the people over my head, if it weren't for those meddeling kids (and their race which put the ski patrol in propper position to be basicly waiting for us to come out).

01-11-2006, 02:35 PM

I always show mucho respect for hoses. Last week I yelled at a kid whome I saw go over a hose... his buddy jumped over it but the second kid didn't.

Now the snowmaking PIPES on the other hand... they always seem to get between me and the woods, so they don't get quite the same treatment.

M@

elwood

01-11-2006, 02:45 PM

I was there and it was the best stuff all day...and we were looking for that dropped glove, honest we were looking....and it was right under a lift....the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the Quad was especially heartwarming :DThe fact that we flew by that glove really fast doesn't change the fact that we were looking for it... ;)

Justin

01-11-2006, 03:57 PM

Now the snowmaking PIPES on the other hand... they always seem to get between me and the woods, so they don't get quite the same treatment.

M@

Slippery suckers... I can't even count how many times I've fallen on my arse to to those rusty pipes.

Justin

01-11-2006, 04:00 PM

Rider.Steve

01-11-2006, 04:12 PM

The fact that we flew by that glove really fast doesn't change the fact that we were looking for it... ;)

Must not have been the glove that you were looking for.

adh24

01-11-2006, 04:16 PM

Ski patrollers can really over react and go on some major power trips. Before Christmas I was skiing with a buddy in the Pocs. Right after they got a decent dumping of snow on top of what the mountain had already made. This one trail was closed that even when open doesn't get a lot of traffic. We poached it periodically throughout the day. For a last run we decided to do that run one more time. My buddy was about 100 yards behind me and didn't see the group of patrollers just hanging out by a group of trees. He ducked and went down while I took another route. He got down before me and was waiting for me at the top of the park entrance. The patroller caught up with him and was yelling and causing a big scene cause my buddy wouldn't go with the patrolman right away to be "prosecuted". He was waiting for me so he could let me know where he had gone. So this guy gets even more ticked off and starts proclaiming that he is going to get the State Police to escort him off the mountain and that he will never board here again if he does cooperate immediately. Was totally unnecessary.

Freebird

01-11-2006, 04:21 PM

Listen to the wisdom:

...and we were looking for that dropped glove, honest we were looking....and it was right under a lift.... :D

I like Jay Peak's and Cannon's philosophy on off trail skiing/poaching... unofficially it basically reads, "We don't give a **** where you ski! Just make some turns, get some face shots and buy a round for your bros at the Peabody pub (if you're at Cannon) afterwards!" They do care about skiing on snowmaking trails though, and for reasons given regarding the cost of hoses and the potential hazards of hitting a snowmaking gun, groomer, snowmobile, snowmaker, etc... I understand that. Otherwise, Ski Free or Die is how I feel.

Now, here's a twist for you guys. I've been doing some talking to people around here, and supposedly out here, they are TIGHT about ducking ropes. Not only that, but a patroller can stand at the top of one lift and scope out 4 or 5 mountains, and all the skiable terrain on it without having to worry about skiers being under the protection of trees! It's wicked easy to get caught, and all the patrollers can actually keep up with you! At first I thought, "yeah I can understand why, avalanches and all that jazz..." Man, we were at the Canyons the other day, and everything in the Wasatch had been stable for a week, and they still were only allowing like 1/4 of their "real" terrain to be skied! I think that they were just rationing out the pow! It's tough, here you are oogling over the pow, and you can't touch it! :cry:

I never thought all this terrain would get skied off so fast! I've been skiing in Utah 4 times this past week (supposedly they had 4 feet the 5 days before I got here- I still think they use Jay Peak's measuring techniques- I've yet to find any in substantial quantities) I mean don't get me wrong, I find some hits here and there like only a good little east coaster can do (in trees way tighter than anyone else would dare ski!) All my skiing at Cannon and Whiteface, I've been able to find more pow than in either Little Cottonwood, Big Cottonwood, or Parley's... What gives? I know this simply can't be true, but I can't really go solo too far in search... Who wants to help me with this task?! Please, I need volunteers, I know it's there, let's find some fluff!

Rider.Steve

01-11-2006, 04:40 PM

Who wants to help me with this task?! Please, I need volunteers, I know it's there, let's find some fluff!

I'm coming out Tuesday night through Sunday and don't have patience with "off limits" terrain. Powder-rationing in Utah? That's just not right!

"Just give up the stashes, and don't strip my passes".

01-11-2006, 04:43 PM

Must not have been the glove that you were looking for....He can go about his business...

Justin

01-11-2006, 05:54 PM

Listen to the wisdom:

I like Jay Peak's and Cannon's philosophy on off trail skiing/poaching... unofficially it basically reads, "We don't give a **** where you ski! Just make some turns, get some face shots and buy a round for your bros at the Peabody pub (if you're at Cannon) afterwards!" They do care about skiing on snowmaking trails though, and for reasons given regarding the cost of hoses and the potential hazards of hitting a snowmaking gun, groomer, snowmobile, snowmaker, etc... I understand that. Otherwise, Ski Free or Die is how I feel.

Now, here's a twist for you guys. I've been doing some talking to people around here, and supposedly out here, they are TIGHT about ducking ropes. Not only that, but a patroller can stand at the top of one lift and scope out 4 or 5 mountains, and all the skiable terrain on it without having to worry about skiers being under the protection of trees! It's wicked easy to get caught, and all the patrollers can actually keep up with you! At first I thought, "yeah I can understand why, avalanches and all that jazz..." Man, we were at the Canyons the other day, and everything in the Wasatch had been stable for a week, and they still were only allowing like 1/4 of their "real" terrain to be skied! I think that they were just rationing out the pow! It's tough, here you are oogling over the pow, and you can't touch it! :cry:

I never thought all this terrain would get skied off so fast! I've been skiing in Utah 4 times this past week (supposedly they had 4 feet the 5 days before I got here- I still think they use Jay Peak's measuring techniques- I've yet to find any in substantial quantities) I mean don't get me wrong, I find some hits here and there like only a good little east coaster can do (in trees way tighter than anyone else would dare ski!) All my skiing at Cannon and Whiteface, I've been able to find more pow than in either Little Cottonwood, Big Cottonwood, or Parley's... What gives? I know this simply can't be true, but I can't really go solo too far in search... Who wants to help me with this task?! Please, I need volunteers, I know it's there, let's find some fluff!

Head over to Powder and Snowbasin... Ain't enough powder harvesters to keep up snow fall over thar in them parts...

Fenris

01-11-2006, 07:47 PM

We really don't have a hard set rule about poaching at Sunday River, mostly it is if you are good about it when we catch you and don't try and cause any trouble then you get to ski away with your ticket, especially if it is earlier in the day. If you are a pain about it, or the moment you make any unkind motions towards patrol, you are toast. People are also a little stricter towards the end of the day because we really don't have the people to deal with someone slaughtering themselves on a closed trail, just before we close, so if we catch you after 2:30-3 then you will usually loose a day pass and have your season pass back once you talk to one of the head honchos. If you are a repeat offender and you mouth off to the head honchos then sometimes people will be banned for a couple of seasons.

Oh, and if you are poaching, don't be dumb enough to try Agony or any of the others under lifts, because especially with Agony we can almost always beat you down to the bottom after someone has walked into the top shack to tell us, while are boots are still unbuckled (ok, only some people can do that). Another thing is that if you manage to poach Agony when Christie is the fore(wo)man then it might just be a little more painful than loosing your pass.

If you really don't want to get caught just make really good friends with as many patrollers as possible and we will invite you along when we check trails, and there is nothing better than officially sanctioned Ruby Palace runs, we have to pack out the trail after all!

-Fenris

Justin

01-11-2006, 08:30 PM

Freebird

01-11-2006, 09:12 PM

Head over to Powder and Snowbasin... Ain't enough powder harvesters to keep up snow fall over thar in them parts...

HEY, it's funny you say that! My girlfriend and I were looking at some of their 2-fer days, and were thinking of heading up next week! I thought it looked pretty decent. (Snowbasin that is... haven't looked into Powder yet)
Alright, so good things to come then. SO is there avy prone terrain there? Should I bring my gear? Definitely going to bring both alpine and tele though, I just got that vibe from that place. Maybe so, maybe not.

I'll be back with a full report, next week. :cool:

Some Good

01-12-2006, 08:15 AM

BTW Somegood, I don't know what kind of snow making hoses your friend uses but every hose I've seen/held/used is pretty dang burly -- not that I have any interest in skiing over them but it'd be one hell of a liability if they could with stand such events seeing as the line OPEN trails.

I've personally had to purchase quite a few hoses at two different ski areas due to ski/snowboard edges cutting them. Even those burly ones cut quite easily under a well tuned edge.

Rider.Steve

01-12-2006, 09:02 AM

Candor Rep. to Fenris and Some Good - thanks for sharing the good sense.

Steve

PLytheman

01-12-2006, 11:15 AM

I've personally had to purchase quite a few hoses at two different ski areas due to ski/snowboard edges cutting them. Even those burly ones cut quite easily under a well tuned edge.

Oh, dont worry about me then, my board is pretty far from tuned =P

After my friends lost their Threedom they had to take a half hour Skier Safety course to get them back. This is my biggest turn off to getting a Threedom. What's the point of paying 300 bucks for a pass they'll just hang over your head like that if they feel it neccessary? Its one thing to pull someone's pass for the day for breaking mountian rules, but to force them to sit through some bull crap class just to get it back? Furthermore, I looked on the back of the lift ticket and all I could gather from the fine print is that user's of the mountain take their safety into their own hands when riding there and that the mountain isn't responsible for any damage. If I'm shelling out 50 bucks for one day of riding, I want to ride all of the mountain and I want decent snow goddamnit!!

I'm glad to see most mountains are a little bit more lenient on this issue than Loon, because while there can be some accidents, for the most part it should be judged on a case by case manner, at least IMHO.

Freebird

01-12-2006, 11:24 AM

Haven been skiing Sunday River for 20 Years and had a season pass for 18 of them and have not once ever had a *problem* with patrol. Speaking of Ruby palace... One day back when, (I was in Highschool), we had just recieved a LARGE midweek storm. I stood atop the roped of trail (closed) contemplating skiing it with a friend. We look awfully suspicious to say the least. A patroller came around the corner and we sort of stumbled for words... He looked at us and said : "what are you waiting for?" and proceeded to duck the rope and take off. We couldn't resist that invitation.

Yeah right on. I haven't skied SR that long but those times that I got shown around by my friend who grew up near there, we had some fun. Stashes all over that place and I never once had a problem with the patrol. It seems like places in northern NE use a lot more common sense when it comes to trail patrolling and not so much "we're going to follow the rule book" mentality like they do in more "southern" areas.

pulverschwein

01-12-2006, 12:00 PM

It seems like places in northern NE use a lot more common sense when it comes to trail patrolling and not so much "we're going to follow the rule book" mentality like they do in more "southern" areas.
I'm not so familiar with the northern area policies - most of my time up there has been BC or at the 'cat. One place further south that's wide open with no rules or hassles is Magic - they don't close a thing (which can be kind of frustrating if you're following your insane nephews through the rocks). But when there's natural cover, the tree shots are some of the best I've found in the east.

01-12-2006, 12:08 PM

... But when there's natural cover, the tree shots are some of the best I've found in the east.Say Amen!

Justin

01-12-2006, 03:14 PM

HEY, it's funny you say that! My girlfriend and I were looking at some of their 2-fer days, and were thinking of heading up next week! I thought it looked pretty decent. (Snowbasin that is... haven't looked into Powder yet)
Alright, so good things to come then. SO is there avy prone terrain there? Should I bring my gear? Definitely going to bring both alpine and tele though, I just got that vibe from that place. Maybe so, maybe not.

I'll be back with a full report, next week. :cool:

Powder is a little gnarlyier Snowbasin has some goods but it's not quite as technically challenging. Prolly be ok with out the gear. Snowbasin biggest gleaming plus is that it has the "most acreage per skier" in the country. Crazy facilities left over from the Olympics but hardly any peeps. Last time I was there was after about 8 inches of snow. We skied nearly untouched powder all freaking day... If you're standing in a liftline it's because the guy infron of you wasn't paying attention... seriously.... way off the beaten path but that's the price you pay.

woodstockloafa

01-15-2006, 10:09 PM

I have a few thoughts. OK, well I'll share two thoughts, I've had at least a dozen in my life...
First is that ski patrol folks are volunteers. Yeah they ski free, but they still have to watch out for people who don't know better. If someone gets lost or hurt on a closed trail, they may sue. Even if they have no shot of winning, it can cost thousands or tens of thousands for the ski area to deal with a law suit, valid or not. Johnny ducked a rope and broke his neck. Mom and Dad sue. Why didn't they have a steel curtain and 10 armed patrollers to stop my Johnny?
And if you're a volunteer ski patroller, what are your thoughts on sweeping every closed trail, some consisting of boilerplate, rocks, and trees when the temp drops to 0 and the sun sets behind the ski area?
I know that many folks here can take care of themselves in/on just about any trail. And hopefully, nobody would poach by themselves so that they wouldn't be stuck on a mountain in the middle of winter waiting for someone to guess where they are.
I understand the reasoning behind poaching, especially by folks who do have the ability to ski just about anything safely. Butthe mountain management is going to be legally responsible for you, and ski patrol has to find you to save you if you get hurt.
Finally, if you break a posted rule, please don't complain when you get nabbed.
All that being said, I would poach if I knew the terrain, and felt comfortable with it, and had someone with me. If I got caught, I'd bit** after ski patrol was done with me.