AT GEAR questions *lots [Archive] - T4T Forums

NtrentT

10-31-2005, 01:06 PM

I dont know where to begin other than start with the goal.

My goal:
To find an aforable free heel ski/binding/boot combo that will suit my skinning needs for backcountry travel and for downhill decents.

Background:
Very good alpine skiier with 23 years of sking exp out of 25 years of life.
No exp on any free heel device ever.
Want to be able to skin up winter trails hunting for turns.
Limited budget
Knowledge of free heel gear = 0%

Ive been picking up backcounty mag and reading all the info I can, yet the gear/setup and options are overwelming.

Im looking for somthing that a novice just starting out can use, and fumble around with.

What should I look into?

I need a pair of boards, bindings, and boots

The boots need to be very comfortable, or have the ability to shape, due to my strange instep ankle bones.

I tried to search the forum using advanced search but I couldnt find much.

10-31-2005, 01:32 PM

The cheapskate way:

Next time you get up to Conway NH drop in at the basement consignment sales area of International Mountain Equipment (IME). Look for the Fritchi bindings mounted on some old skis in your size. Bring your old skiboots to ensure that the binders fit (very important as the binders are sold in different size ranges).

If all looks well you'll be out 100-175 bucks and have a pair of beater skis and used binders........get some skins and you are ready to start in your own skiboots.

The not-frugal but wise way:

Get the Fritchi Freeride binders (you are an expert, don't screw around with entry level gear) mounted to a clearance pair of skis TM-EX or TM-X from Atomic, The green BD Crossbows or the BD Ethics, or any of the mid-fat to fat Karhu's.

Get the shop to mount the binders and fit some skins to your skis (get them to leave the edges fully exposed, but cover all the base material)

Check for demo gear already mounted.

With the Naxo or Freeride you can use your Alpine boots, the shop will ask you the length of the sole plate. When you do get AT boots make sure that the type you like has the same length sole plate or close enough that the same binding size will be okay.

That's it:

Well, just one little rant: Experts waste money on entry level gear as they will want/need better very soon and on sum the price is nearly double....as the entrylevel gear had a price too.!

Rant over!

10-31-2005, 01:38 PM

Free heel = Telemark, the heel is never locked, freeing all the muscles of the leg to power the edges, thereby being the most powerful way to ski. The inside ski tip is back a little.

AT = Alpine with the ability to unlock the binder for lifting the heel to walk. It is locked for descents and is no different than Alpine skiing. That is, like riding a coaster-brake bike: easy and fun. The inside ski tip is forward a little.

Affix Snow

10-31-2005, 01:43 PM

Ebay.

Justin

10-31-2005, 02:03 PM

You gotta decide of you are going to go the AT route or the Tele route. There are some advantages that are pretty obvious but a few that are not. For instance, you can always use your Alpine boots with the AT binders until you have the mula to drop in the boots.

Personally, I'm much better with fixed heels. I'll ski just about everything I would on teles as I would with my alpines, just not nearly as well...

el-bagr

10-31-2005, 02:05 PM

FWIW, IME had one or two Fritschi-mounted skis in the basement on Thursday. Ski selection was disappointingly limited, IMO -- unless you want those white "military" skis.

kfarrar

10-31-2005, 02:13 PM

lets not forget the basement of Ragged Mountain and EMS. They both had some decent used teleset ups and a few T2's to chose from.

Justin

10-31-2005, 02:13 PM

Also FWIW, I've been looking for a pair of AT binders (at a sub 300 price) for about 7 months now to no avail. I'm gonna break down and flip the bill soon.

Damb Us dollar!

kfarrar

10-31-2005, 02:16 PM

I got my whole Alpine Touring setup at www.thinkmountain.com and they paid the shipping. This was 4 years ago and the setup is still going strong. Hagan skis, Scarpa Laser Boots and Fritschi bindings with skins. Total cost was about $750.00

skiyak777

10-31-2005, 02:25 PM

Also FWIW, I've been looking for a pair of AT binders (at a sub 300 price) for about 7 months now to no avail. I'm gonna break down and flip the bill soon.

Damb Us dollar!

Check Telemark Pyrenees. They've got Freerides for 250 euros, which I think is about $300. You can also save a lot of money on skis and boots there. I've ordered from them several times and always gotten my stuff in less than a week. Once I had to pay a $40 import duty on boots, but most times not.

Justin

10-31-2005, 02:27 PM

Check Telemark Pyrenees. They've got Freerides for 250 euros, which I think is about $300. You can also save a lot of money on skis and boots there. I've ordered from them several times and always gotten my stuff in less than a week. Once I had to pay a $40 import duty on boots, but most times not.

Ya, that's prolly what I'll do seems to be the "going deal" now a days. :rolleyes:

Affix Snow

10-31-2005, 02:28 PM

Fritschi Freerides (http://cgi.ebay.com/Fritschi-Freeride-Alpine-Touring-Ski-Bindings_W0QQitemZ8715843295QQcategoryZ21238QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

elwood

10-31-2005, 02:28 PM

Here's the link:
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=1_48_50&products_id=1269

Justin

10-31-2005, 02:31 PM

Fritschi Freerides (http://cgi.ebay.com/Fritschi-Freeride-Alpine-Touring-Ski-Bindings_W0QQitemZ8715843295QQcategoryZ21238QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Yep, saw those. Need smalls

Affix Snow

10-31-2005, 02:34 PM

Freerides $329 in short and Medium..... (http://store.yahoo.com/bittersweetgear/blacdiamfree.html)

Skilasnow

10-31-2005, 02:42 PM

... -- unless you want those white "military" skis.

Hey! I ski on a pair of those
http://timefortuckerman.com/photopost/data/500/1003T4T-med.JPG

PWDR8S

10-31-2005, 03:11 PM

Hey! I ski on a pair of those

You radical! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

My 2 cents.....
You're definitely alpine now and switching to tele (freeheel) takes some getting used to. I go both ways (hey! no snickering in the peanut gallery!) on tele or alpine but I'm most confident on the steeps and gnarly stuff on my alpines(fixed heels). It's a fun challenge to get into tele but it would take some getting used to before doing it comfortably in the backcountry.

Also decide if you'll be dedicating gear to the backcountry pursuit or will you be doing slackcountry with the better part inbounds?

I've steered into the AT field like you a few years back and tried the tele path (not telepath! or else you'ld already know what I'm about to type! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif). I enjoy it yet it has it's time and place. I tried the Alpine Trekker adaptors. They're OK if you're not on raised alpine bindings to begin with...gets too high and unstable. The Alpine Trekkers basically allow alpine gear to be used and allow the 'free heel' for skinning up and then you have you alpine set up for the descents. You can try them but will likely find you want better. The suggestions of the previous posters are good and valid. If you are looking to buy dedicated eq and it would be new, then Telemark-Pyrenees is an excellent source for good prices. I'm flying over to the alps soon to see if I can find better deal than them and so far they can't be beat!

You got some time and decisions to make. Tag along with us on our assorted adventures and you'll learn much from our mistakes and triumphs.

skicdave

10-31-2005, 03:45 PM

Great info T4Ter's!

I was in EMS and High Peaks in Lake Placid on the weekend looking at AT equipment which is in :santa: 's que for gift giving this Xmas. I've decide to buy some new boots (I like them to fit!) but look for used skis/bindings. Looks like High Peaks will have their used AT gear out shortly. Any other places to look for used AT equipment in the Lake Placid area?

I've only tele'd one day in Banff back in the 80's. Learned quick but boy its hard on the quads! Figured it makes more sense to ski what I know best on the slopes... so I'll keep my heels fixed!

Any comments on Fritschi vs Naxo or Dynafit?

I'll be using them in the backcountry mainly around Placid... hopefully at Tucks once in a blue moon.

NtrentT

10-31-2005, 04:24 PM

! YOU PEOPLE ARE GREAT !

The advice is very much apreciated.

Thank you so much, as it cleared up alot of fuzzy areas that I wasnt sure about.

Im actually going to print this thread out and highlight areas of interested.

From reading your posts, I have decided to go with AT gear rather than tele, other than that, I havent decided on equip, I need to see how the wife feels with me spending more $$$ on skiing, after the J.H trip pruchase, I need to aproach new equipment delicatly.

but seriously thank you so much.

10-31-2005, 05:17 PM

... I need to see how the wife feels with me spending more $$$ on skiing, after the J.H trip pruchase, I need to aproach new equipment delicatly...Boy do you have that right!

Better put something for her on offer, and go through with it. A cruise (go ahead everyone, get it out, don't hold it in....laugh!), a week at a nice resort that caters to her interests...with you. And if she goes for it, you have to go. Don't mention anything about other places while you are there...just get into it and the purse strings will loosen...

Trust me on that!

Affix Snow

10-31-2005, 06:22 PM

http://store.yahoo.com/bittersweetgear/blacdiamfree.html

Justin

10-31-2005, 06:23 PM

Great info T4Ter's!

Any comments on Fritschi vs Naxo or Dynafit?

My opinion is simple, If you can get Fritschi's. AT gear is often pluaged with durability problems. Fritschi seems to have the edge in this catagory.

Naxo's have had serious probs in the past with durability but have beefed up the recent models.

I don't know much about Dynafit except that they are quite light. I have to say, after skiing in Alpine binders for so long them Dynafits sure look suspect. ...but that's just me.

Jolly J

10-31-2005, 08:16 PM

I'll let you know how the Naxo's are in a few months. Hopefully picking up a pair of nx21's in the next week or so. Just waiting to see what they'll get mounted on. I'm hoping for Sick or Dirty Birds.

riverc0il

10-31-2005, 08:36 PM

NtrentT, i was pretty much in the same boat as you a year ago. the options for BC touring gear is quite large and the options and variations are so emmense it's rare you see two people using the same exact setup with exception of a few really popular rigs.

some great advice so far and i don't have to much to add. i would like to echo starting out with the best there is. don't cheap out, you know you are interested and you're going to love it. worst case, you buy a pair of freerides or naxos and hate it after two or three outings you can still get over 80% of your money back on a used sale.

if you go with the freeride or naxo, you can use your alpine boots the first season. there are some nay sayers in the go light movement regarding this setup, but for 2k vert skins on a day trip, they are fine. i used my xwave 10s last year on freerides and no major complaints. i still upgraded to gride's this year though :D

don't forget adjustable poles and don't chinse out on the skins either! so the big items you are looking at is a freeride or naxo (assuming you use your alpine boots), good set of skins, and adjustable poles. you may also want to consider your clothing to ensure you have light and breathable clothing as regular ski parkas are to heavy and warm for a skin up.

definitely scope out ebay for the freerides. the price on these suckers jumped $100 from last season to this season, so last seasons model is preferable at a cheaper price. enjoy!

btw- one more item: you don't need to buy an AT specific ski if you don't want to. a lot of folks (myself included) use regular alpine skis instead of AT specific like G3, BD, etc. so if you have a spare pair of alpine skis kicking around, that will save you the cost of skis.

Skilasnow

11-01-2005, 12:24 AM

A big yes on the adjustable poles. I picked up a pair of used ones from EMS for $20 last year. My father bent one of them training for Kilimanjaro so its a little sticky now.

skiyak777

11-01-2005, 05:10 AM

My opinion is simple, If you can get Fritschi's. AT gear is often pluaged with durability problems. Fritschi seems to have the edge in this catagory.

Naxo's have had serious probs in the past with durability but have beefed up the recent models.

I don't know much about Dynafit except that they are quite light. I have to say, after skiing in Alpine binders for so long them Dynafits sure look suspect. ...but that's just me.

I've used Fritschi's for about 5 years and they work great, but after three trips to Shasta this summer I've become a weight weenie. I can carry about 60 pounds comfortably, and since my skis/boots/bindings weigh 21 pounds, that leaves 39 pounds for other climbing, camping and safety gear. I just picked up a downhill performance oriented Dynafit setup (from TP) that will shave 6-7 pounds off my Fritschi setup and allow me to bring some food, a kite, or a rope.

I figure if Dynafits work well enough and are durable enough for Lou Dawson, Andrew McLean, and JShefftz (not that I'm in anywhere near the same league) they'll be okay for me.

Watch the gear exchange page. If the skiing performance of the Dynafits is acceptable, I may turn over some Fritschi gear. Incidentally, I have some Alpine Trekkers on Ebay right now. Would have posted them here, but I hated them so much I no longer even wanted to keep them to loan to friends.

Justin

11-01-2005, 08:42 AM

I figure if Dynafits work well enough and are durable enough for Lou Dawson, Andrew McLean, and JShefftz (not that I'm in anywhere near the same league) they'll be okay for me.

Like I said, I have no real opinion on the Dynafits except that they sure look suspect... them suckers sure are light though!

Justin

11-01-2005, 08:52 AM

ph, i'd be interested to ski em'

skiyak777

11-01-2005, 09:06 AM

ph, i'd be interested to ski em'

You can try mine out, but I wear size 30.5 and one of the downsides of these bindings is that they have a very small adjustment range. There are some places out west that rent them (search TTIPS.) I was going to do that but it looked like a lot of places were selling out early this year so I figured I'd use the ebay rental program instead.

11-01-2005, 09:41 AM

Telemarkdown has a good selection of skis under 200 bucks. New and some good for BC/Piste and others better for Piste/BC.

ATP

11-01-2005, 10:13 AM

Funny. Nobody has mentioned the Silvretta Pure. They are in the same vein as the Naxo21 and the Freeride. Be sure to get the most recent vintage, as they, like the Naxo01, had early edition durability problems. See: Lou Dawson's site (http://www.wildsnow.com/backcountry-blog/backcountry-skiing-6-caudills.html#silv) for details on how to distinguish between the earlier and current edition. Note that the Pure (as opposed to the Pure Freeride) has a max DIN of 10. This is fine in my book, and thus they're near the top of the list for my next pair of skis.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that Dynafits are wimpy. Unlike the plate bindings, the Dynafits are all steel (or titanium, if you get the fancier race model). They're just more elegantly designed. The newer versions have much longer pins attaching them to the toe of the boots, so they are more capable of handling aggressive skiing (http://timefortuckerman.com/photopost/data/500/2584ben31-med.jpg) than older models. They won't be for you as they aren't cheap, especially when you factor in the boots, but they shouldn't be written off too quickly.

Definitely shop the bargain basements. There aren't many bargains on Freerides these days (they get bid up quickly on ebay), but IME and the like are the best places to look. Don't be afraid of earllier Diamirs either. They may not go to DIN 12 (and thus could prerelease at 9 or 10), but they're durable.

Fact of the matter is that you're less likely to find a bargain on the bindings than the skis or skins. At this time of year, you likely either need to suck it up or wait for spring and hope you luck into a deal sooner.

NtrentT

11-01-2005, 10:20 AM

ATP

11-01-2005, 10:21 AM

Free heel = Telemark, the heel is never locked, freeing all the muscles of the leg to power the edges, thereby being the most powerful way to ski.

Little early to be hitting the strong stuff, eh?

You're better off using angulation to power your edges. Bode demonstrates how much more angulation you can get on alpine gear. Nobody could match that power on tele gear.

http://timefortuckerman.com/photopost/data/500/2584bodemillerGS022804m.jpg

Justin

11-01-2005, 10:37 AM

Great advice ! Very helpfull.

riverc0il
Keep'n it cheep, im going to take your advice, and look on ebay or swaps for last seasons freerides and some decent alpine skis.

Whats an avg price for a set of good skins for lets say a length of 165

Price is by width not length. You should really get skins that are as wide as the widest part of your ski then trim them. By the way, you skis aren't 165cm are they :eek:

skiyak777

11-01-2005, 10:37 AM

ATP

11-01-2005, 10:50 AM

I hereby withraw my earlier absolute declarative about "nobody could match..." on the grounds that both of those skiers are so far beyond my level of ability that I make a poor judge.

I make no such withdrawal of my accusations regarding RR's midday indulgence in the absence of evidence to the contrary. ;)

11-01-2005, 11:02 AM

Little early to be hitting the strong stuff, eh?

You're better off using angulation to power your edges. Bode demonstrates how much more angulation you can get on alpine gear. Nobody could match that power on tele gear.Chris Rice
http://timefortuckerman.com/photopost/data/500/41502-19-rice.jpeg
agrees with you and nearly everyone else on which method is more poweful on edge....

Angulation is key...please take a look at the leading knee vs centered knee on the inner radius and tell me how the angulation is better with the leading knee. And, while you are at it, please let me know why a lower center of gravity is bad for power. Speed, well I have to agree that two points of contact provide better control for the flat ski for schuss....but that is not power.

I'm a piss-poor tele skier, but I nearly had what I needed on the heavy&wet with sloppy leathers and skinny skis on the Left Gulley headwall last season.

I learned to ski alpine in '62/'63.....I have a fair amount of confidence in my various Alpine techniques and plan on getting better and better until the reaper gets me. If I can tele with what was there with those flexible flyers....I'm pretty sure there's plenty more coming when I get some time with better gear. Makes me wish I was twenty-five years younger and had real knees so I could prove my theory that more muscle driving into the ski= more power at the edge.

Parting thought: Alpine is easier, therefore the learning curve starts sooner and it goes rapidly to a high point. The mountain hermits are nearly all tele guys and they rip w/o the fame in places where no other sliders have been, leaving visitors in the smoke every time...

It's a serious matter, but it is all about the love.

Afterthought: As Tele specific skis are getting better design and refinement expenses (it is also about the money) we will see more interesting ways of putting the broad single point thrust into edge power...this is an exciting time for sliding...

PostScript...I showed "Soul Slide" to my, Chamo tripping, Egan Camping, "fix the heel, fix the problem" brother in-law"....he was stunned that those hairy lines were being done by freeheelers. I'm not even surprised, any act of vision has skeptics....time will tell.

The best slider is the happiest slider!

PWDR8S

11-01-2005, 12:58 PM

I'll let you know in a few months about Dynafits TLT Comfort.... I am aiming for lightitude these days. Call me lazy or whatever.... I just want to go higher farther and longer.

I've done a lot of research and discovered that 80+% of the Rando racers in the Alps use Dynafits and those guys are hard on equipment and they don't all use titanium versions. If the the Dynafits can handle rando racing then my modest style(if you can call it that) shouldn't stress them compared to the racers.

I bought a pair of Garmont Mega-Rides early in the summer and it cut my boot weight in half... now I'm working on the rest. http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Just so this old fart can keep up with you young whippersnappers! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif

11-01-2005, 01:19 PM

... I've done a lot of research and discovered that 80+% of the Rando racers in the Alps use Dynafits and those guys are hard on equipment and they don't all use titanium versions. If the the Dynafits can handle rando racing then my modest style(if you can call it that) shouldn't stress them compared to the racers....I'll let you all in on a secret:
Those binders are replaced every race for as often as the sponsor likes the results. The second tier are buying their own and still replacing twice a season, or more often if they have the scratch. The third tier and the rec racers are buying the cast offs from the first tier when the sponsor sends the new. Same for skis.

Same in any kind of racing, motorized too.....

My observations:
A small, but very strong Swiss woman decended the North Slide with us last year. She was on the best Dynafits. She was smooth and expert, those binders were flexing all over the place at the front half....I have two words for y'all: Metal Fatique!

I'm 200lbs on a bad day and there's no way I can afford to replace binders every two years....so I slack my springs and ski delicate (yeah, I know, LOL!)

PWDR8S

11-01-2005, 01:58 PM

I know about the eq replacements on the upper tiers in the races but I've talked to a few in the past couple month who are in the 2nd and 3rd string and they told me that they use the same binders for a couple seasons. Well the 3rds did, the 2nds replace once a yr which I don't plan on doing. A few mentioned that they use D's for their personal recreational touring and find that they do well, the rest I don't know. I may have lost that in the translations. Also, I couldn't tell you if they work for Dynafit.

When I'm over there, I'll be a few ski shops getting the dirt on the different options. 1st stop - Chamonix! I think a few of those guys would have an idea or two.

Justin

11-01-2005, 02:00 PM

I'll let you all in on a secret:
Those binders are replaced every race for as often as the sponsor likes the results. The second tier are buying their own and still replacing twice a season, or more often if they have the scratch. The third tier and the rec racers are buying the cast offs from the first tier when the sponsor sends the new. Same for skis.

Same in any kind of racing, motorized too.....

My observations:
A small, but very strong Swiss woman decended the North Slide with us last year. She was on the best Dynafits. She was smooth and expert, those binders were flexing all over the place at the front half....I have two words for y'all: Metal Fatique!

I'm 200lbs on a bad day and there's no way I can afford to replace binders every two years....so I slack my springs and ski delicate (yeah, I know, LOL!)

Took the words out of my mouth...

ATP

11-01-2005, 02:39 PM

Angulation is key...please take a look at the leading knee vs centered knee on the inner radius and tell me how the angulation is better with the leading knee. And, while you are at it, please let me know why a lower center of gravity is bad for power. Speed, well I have to agree that two points of contact provide better control for the flat ski for schuss....but that is not power.

Angulation is better with the leading inner knee because the hips are turned down the hill, allowing flexion at the waist to improve weighting of the more strongly engaged downhill ski. Furthermore power is better because both legs are directly supported by skeltal alignment from the boot to the knee (in the case of the inner leg) and to the hip (in the case of the outer leg). In telemark, only the outside leg has this sort of skeletal support, while the trailing leg relies more on musclular exertion around the knee to engage the ball of the foot on the rear ski.

Don't know why I took the bait and hijacked the thread. Personally, I wish I could tele. It seems like much more fun, at least once you get good at it. Gotta polish my alpine bag o tricks before I take it up.

NtrentT

11-02-2005, 09:53 AM

Price is by width not length. You should really get skins that are as wide as the widest part of your ski then trim them. By the way, you skis aren't 165cm are they :eek:

I think there 164s to be exact, there my shortest pair yet. Im 5'8" or so, and weigh 150 lbs +/- 3lbs or so.

I use to ski on 174s when I was alot shorter, and younger, but sense the shaped skis came out, I went shorter, and enjoyed it.

Have a pair of 2004 Atomic SX9s which I love, took them to the summit of Mt.W, and they kicked azz.

So far the atomic sx9s are my fav ski, just need to tune them up for this comming season, the edges are a little banged up from all that off piste.

Seraded edges arnt the best :D

PWDR8S

11-02-2005, 11:55 AM

Seraded edges arnt the best :D
Oh yes they can be! For cutting wood in the backcountry and beyond! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif All so you can cook some http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/hotdog.gif and http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/baconandeggs.gif if you happen to be camping out there! http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

smido

11-04-2005, 10:18 PM

I thought I would add my 5 cents. I have been trying to assemble my AT setup during the summer, which obviously allowed me to get lower prices. Still, I was able to get a pair of Dynafit Comforts (very slightly used) for $200 at IME and a used pair of Scarpa Lasers on eBay for $90. I got a pair of BD skins online for $60. Sans skis, my setup is $350.

Places to check online (especially for skins) are sierratradingpost.com and backcountry.com. (I also check out their Steep and Cheap section, which has some incredibel deals sometimes.)

As far as the durability of Dynafits gos, I will be able to attest better later in the season. However, I am from Europe (Slovakia) and I have bunch of friends who AT and almost all of them use Dynafits. Some of them actually raced on the European circuit (Pierra Menta, etc) and they certainly did not replace their binders every season. Also, check Lou Dawson's website for his bench test of the bindings' flex and guess who won the test.