From another board, A report from the Denver Post

[Castlerock]

Avy death (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~34423~2762723,00.html)

Interesting take on rider competency as an aspect of avy safety. Has a similar feel to the death in Smugglers Notch where supposedly the slide was triggered by the fall.

[el-bagr]

Ttips and TGR are also discussing this. Some have noted that the article discusses telemarking as a potential risk factor for slide-triggering falls -- as a "more challenging" discipline offering "less control", the theory is that falls are more likely on freeheel gear. An interesting notion.

Personally, if traveling in no-fall terrain, I will not use certain skis in my quiver which do fine for their roles. The margin of error in no-fall terrain is undoubtedly less.

(Castlerock, where else do you post/lurk?)

[Castlerock]

I'll bet if you look at skill level in the back country you'll probably find more tele folks at lower ends of the skill spectrum. Mostly because they are newer to the discipline (note I said discipline, they probably skied alpine for years)

As for message boards, I pay attention to First Tracks/No Bull and the Sugarbush Forum on RSN. RSN is where I found this. It is only worthwhile if you have a locals interest in the Bush. I do lurk at T-Tips and TGR, but typically only for "incidents and accidents"

[Rainman]

Don't really agree that Tele makes it "more dangerous" as the article implies. To me this shows the ignorance of the writer about our sport and makes light of the tragedy that happen. Most of the people that I consider “expert” skiers ride free heel. It’s all a factor of your ability on YOUR equipment. Regardless of what it is. A fall in unstable snow is a fall in unstable snow. It’s very tragic and my condolences go out to the family. I would have preferred that the writer tell us where the process broke down so we can learn more from this event rather than make bias statements about equipment. I always look to learn from these tragedies so I can hopefully avoid similar tragedy in my own trips. I see two lessons here .. even with “expert guides” that are highly trained and know the terrain well each of us is responsible for ourselves and making our own call. I also have a feeling that the human factor played a BIG role in this tragedy. I could see a decision based on the fact that we have two experienced guides in an experienced group. We should be safe right???

[Huckasaurass]

I've read that the free heeler has greater potential to trigger avalanches due to the deep knee action for turning increased stress on the snowpack? I don't know, logically it does make some sense, but logic doesnt always fit...so who know. Incedentally i'm a fixed heeler ONLY so what do I really know? I can only go on what I read and what i'm told.

Anyhow...I frequent thie board, telemarkskier.com (coulior mag forum) and TGR. I find TGR to be very childish, seems much flaming goes on there.

Just my .02

Matt

[el-bagr]

I find TGR to be very childish, seems much flaming goes on there.

GET LOST, JONG! GO **** IT OUT YOUR ***! :D (Always wanted to do that.)

Some gems do rise above that level of sophistication, but there is a whole lot of spray, beating, and generalized anti-stoke over there.

[Huckasaurass]

GET LOST, JONG! GO **** IT OUT YOUR ***! :D (Always wanted to do that.)

Some gems do rise above that level of sophistication, but there is a whole lot of spray, beating, and generalized anti-stoke over there.

Yeah whats with the JONG deal? Man I made one post there...and got flamed..I was just offering tech advice...Holy cow...

You're right though..if you wade through the junk there is some good content, but its looking worht it? I don't know.

Glad somone else shares the smae experiences though. :D

Matt

[mainwaring]

Don't really agree that Tele makes it "more dangerous" as the article implies. To me this shows the ignorance of the writer about our sport and makes light of the tragedy that happen. Most of the people that I consider “expert” skiers ride free heel. It’s all a factor of your ability on YOUR equipment. Regardless of what it is. A fall in unstable snow is a fall in unstable snow. It’s very tragic and my condolences go out to the family. I would have preferred that the writer tell us where the process broke down so we can learn more from this event rather than make bias statements about equipment. I always look to learn from these tragedies so I can hopefully avoid similar tragedy in my own trips. I see two lessons here .. even with “expert guides” that are highly trained and know the terrain well each of us is responsible for ourselves and making our own call. I also have a feeling that the human factor played a BIG role in this tragedy. I could see a decision based on the fact that we have two experienced guides in an experienced group. We should be safe right???


hey, i don't want to really take issue with you here, but did you read the article? it seems you did, so i think we just read things differently. i don't think the writer was singling out tele riders or the gear in this case, i think he was questioning this particular rider and his decisions, which as you noted, could add to the collective wisdom gained.

the way i read it, the article intimated (but did not state, so i have to speculate) that the person in question took a fall that may have exacerbated the outcome. and that the fall may have been the result of not being at an optimal skill level on that gear. excerpted:

Jackson is not so crass as to point fingers, but in his evaluation of the tragedy he alludes to Jensen's telemark technique as possibly placing him in danger, his wide turns pushing him beyond the chute's safety zone.

"After about five turns John lost control and shifted his weight onto the back of his skis. This put him off balance while turning to the right and caused him to fall downhill hard onto the slope," Jackson reported after the incident. "Upon impact he rolled over to correct his stance, but the slope collapsed uphill of him. ... The fracture propagated up the gully dramatically, and John disappeared over a convexity with the slide."

i think about this all the time when i am in the bc because i generally choose to snowboard. i am not a good boarder, and my skill level boarding is nowhere near my skill level skiing. there are times when i wonder whether that will bite me in the a$$. i can safely ski out of areas quickly, but may not be able to do so on a board. the mitigating factors in my bc universe are that i feel pretty comfortable with my skill levels boarding on the east coast in the areas i choose to explore. if i chose to go into higher risk areas, i would do so on skis, where i think i would decrease any of those excess factors that i have boarding.

so i think the writer brings up a good argument...mostly self-assessment skills, and i don't think he is concentrating his invective or focus on tele gear in specific but the rider's skill level in general.

just my read on it...

[Affix Snow]

Skill not gear. Done and Done.

[RR]

WPWT

Muggs, skilled mountaineer...killed while climbing...crevasse fall

Lorenzo, champion driver...killed in race-crash aftermath....burned to death when press helo got close and fanned the flames

Craig, inovator and pioneer of extreme snowboarding...avvy

boys and girls, we practice a dangerous variant of a generally safe pass-time. The objective hazzards are legion and the nexus of those and any given moment can put out the lights for good.

The best gear, the best skillset on that gear....good for the odds, but the board (chess board of life) is set. How often we cross that board in the play doesn't matter until it finally does.

Eyes open, brain engaged, share counsel on slope and we can help each other across the board again.

[Toddski]

I triggered a mini avalanche last Sunday in the BC of NH. My friend on teleskis went relitive straight down the powder and into the woods with no problems. I however following on my board, carved hard at the top of the gully so I could take another line. Snow was very heavy and wet, and my board bulldozed and pushed the snow as I exited the turn, it felt weird and I looked over to see a 15 foot fracture form which let go and slid about 40 feet. No worries not a slide that would bury or kill anybody, but it defiantly was a good learning experience!

[Castlerock]

Mainwarning and Affix have a similar take to mine. The issue wasn't the gear. To a certain degree it was the skill on the gear.

The thing I thought interesting in the whole thing was that it was the fall that triggered the slide.

[RR]

Mainwarning and Affix have a similar take to mine. The issue wasn't the gear. To a certain degree it was the skill on the gear.

The thing I thought interesting in the whole thing was that it was the fall that triggered the slide.Was it last year we saw the photos of puma tracks turn ito a release line with a 6-7 foot crown?

We've all seen footage of releases triggered by skiers/riders that do not fall...Sent a few NE sloughs in my day and waded through plenty of chest deep on the steeps trying to get higher. Toddski's recent experience shows it's all to easy to trigger a slide. There's a difference between starting one and getting slid.

A few years ago Kent K. was free riding big lines on film and set one off and promptly skied away and waited for the trouble to pass in the lee of a rock...without the rock he might have set off more on the steeper ground past the rock. Lucky

Skills have an impact....but it comes down to WPWT in my book.

[M@]

WPWT
Console.Write RR.Translate("WPWT").ToString();

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M@

[RR]

Console.Write RR.Translate("WPWT").ToString();

{Error - does not translate}

M@Wrong Place, Wrong Time

[Freebird]

I would have preferred that the writer tell us where the process broke down so we can learn more from this event rather than make bias statements about equipment.

Very well said.
The media is riddled with bias statements. My condolences as well.