BD-Havoc vs. Jak BC

[Affix Snow]

I found a great deal on new Black Diamond Havoc's and Karhu Jak BC's,
Half Off!

I was curious on people opinions on the two before i buy.

I wanna use them mostly for powder/BC, but also occasional resort/tree skiing.


The Havoc are 88 underfoot (183) whille the Jak BC(180) are 97 underfoot.
They both felt the same as far as weight is concerned.

Thanks for any help.

[Justin]

I found a great deal on new Black Diamond Havoc's and Karhu Jak BC's,
Half Off!

I was curious on people opinions on the two before i buy.

I wanna use them mostly for powder/BC, but also occasional resort/tree skiing.


The Havoc are 88 underfoot (183) whille the Jak BC(180) are 97 underfoot.
They both felt the same as far as weight is concerned.

Thanks for any help.

Them are some wide waists... I have to admit to not know a whole lot about tele in general. I'm not sure of your wight/height/skill but i would wager these ski might be a little much to bight off for an average sized dude just starting out:)

[el-bagr]

Jak and Jak BC are fairly popular the past 2 years, especially out west. For eastern skiing, they can be very fat and a big sluggish edge-to-edge. Hardpack performance isn't bad, but these skis really come alive in powder. Depending on how much and where you will use them, they might work out for you. I'm not one of those who ignores New England powder; I believe in it and hit it up as it falls. Still, unless you can find a great deal, I wouldn't necessarily go for such wide boards. I also dislike the Jak BC's "micro edge" -- why skimp on edge in the NE?

Havoc is fatter than a traditional "carver" ski, but has good edge hold. A lot of people use skis that wide for New England skiing.

For a fine discussion of Havoc vs. Jak BC, see this ttips thread (http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17554).

[Affix Snow]

TTips thread was great! Thanx.

I think im gonna go w/ the Havoc.
I have a pair of "skinny" tele's for the hard pack, but i agree w/ Justin in that i might not need such a wide ski for my ability...yet.

The havoc should be wide enough to float me, as well as do some resort turns in between trees. And yes....i found a GREAT deal! Its good to have freinds at ski shops!

Thanks

[Zack]

The havoc is put out by atomic and i've heard its like a detuned REX. The Jak BC is real soft and floppy, but a fun ski. Gets kicked around a bunch though.

[Affix Snow]

The havoc is put out by atomic and i've heard its like a detuned REX. The Jak BC is real soft and floppy, but a fun ski. Gets kicked around a bunch though.

My freind told me that Atomic makes it, and they wouldnt lisence some technology for BD, but developed similar "bow" technology......? maybe thats why it is a detuned rex?

[el-bagr]

I love Karhu, but here's more on the Havoc from ttips (http://www.telemarktips.com/SkiRev03_04.html):

Black Diamond Havoc

Dimensions: 120/88/113. . Lengths: 163, 173, 183. ..Weight (183): 7 lbs 15 ozs (3.61 kg)

May 20, 2003--Black Diamond's Havoc continues an evolutionary process at BD, begun last year with the Crossbow, in which the traditionally backcountry-oriented ski maker moved beyond that narrower niche and began to offer skis that are well suited to an emerging, wider range, of modern big-mountain, on and off-piste skiing styles. The Havoc's twin tips, burly dimensions, C-Matrix cap and dual torsion bow construction take BD into the rarefied world of today's most aggressive, high energy, all mountain telemark skiers. In this ski BD now has a tool capable of keeping up with the big players who are pushing the sport to new levels...and for those who are determined to join them.

Construction

The Havoc has a symmetrical raised and reinforced topsheet designed to distribute the skier's weight out into the sweet flex zones in the tail and along the forebody of the ski. The C-Matrix material consists of a layer of woven glass/alloy, impregnated with vaporized aluminum, that serves to add to the Havoc's torsional rigidity and contribute to increased dampness. It is wrapped around BD's familiar Densolite foam core, which is formed into the Havoc's unique 3 dimensional shape. Sidecut is 26mm and turn radius is 22.7m, nearly identical to the Atomic 10ex/Rex skis to which the Havoc is often compared.

On Snow

The Havoc's are very versatile fat skis. They are extremely rigid torsionally making them surprisingly solid performers on hardpack for such a fat ski, and their relatively much lower swing weight (as compared to other skis in this category) makes them quick edge-to-edge on the steeps. The moderately shaped sidecut combines with the aforementioned torsional stiffness to make the Havoc excellent on the groomers. And as one would expect, the fat waist and broad tip contribute to good float and excellent stability in powder and cut up crud. But wait, there's more good news.

As if this important 3 category homerun were not enough, the Havoc has a moderate amount of lateral flex that our testers generally felt was round and sweet, making this new phat ski not only capable in the soft stuff but a hell of a lot of fun too. The Havocs give a lot back for the amount of input required, and that sweet flex has a lot to do with making them ride lively and nimble.

Feedback from testers who take to the air indicates that the Havoc's broad base provides a very stable landing platform. The test pair have been both durable and strong, absorbing more than a fair amount of punishingly hard landings in the park, and off rocks and cliffs, both in and out of bounds. Thus far the Havocs have proven to be tough boards.

On the negative side, very big skiers and maching high-speed rippers have told us they would prefer a longer version than the largest size Havoc, which is just 183cm. These same skiers have also said that they would like the Havoc to be heavier and more damp as well, to punch through crud, mank and cut up snow with more authority at very high speeds. We suppose that this is not much of a surprise in a critique of a big-mountain ski with a backcountry soul, which is what one would expect BD to deliver anyway. They are comments worth noting but involve certain design change trade-offs. Others tend to think that BD's Havoc fills a lighter, true phat ski niche very well, as is.

Conclusion

BD has accomplished something special here, producing a remarkably versatile fat ski that builds on their experience with the sweet flexing Mira of two years ago and the innovative Crossbow from last season.

This Havoc is a very high tech ski. From its "dual crossbow" reinforced topsheet to its electra
sintered graphite base, and from one turned up tip to another, the Havoc is a great example of modern, state of the art ski design brought to life in a freeheel ski. It does so many things so well that it's hard to imagine these boards being anything but a big hit for Black Diamond. Imagine a fatter but still slightly lighter10ex/Rex with even more torsional rigidity and a telemark specific flex, and you've got a handle on the Havoc.

A true big mountain crossover ski, it's as easy to imagine skiers setting up the Havocs with lighter weight bindings and mid-weight boots for a performance tour for turns rig as it is to see the Havocs being run with big boots underneath the most aggressive tele skiers in the most challenging venues.

Major props to Black Diamond for ramping it up with what will surely be, in our book, a strong contender for freeheel ski of the year.



-=-=-

And here's some on the Jak BC from the same review:

Dimensions: 127/97/117, Lengths: 170, 180, 190, Tested weight : (180s) 7 lbs 14 ozs (3572g)




January, 2004-- How do you improve on a ground-breakingly fat tele ski that established itself as one of the most versatile wide-bodies in tele ski history? Simple: you make it lighter and a little stiffer, keeping all of its best qualities while making it even more versatile in all conditions. That's what Karhu has done to its Jak in evolving this new model, the Jak BC.

The Jak BC loses the straight Jaks Titanal layers and replaces them with a carbon fiber Powerband. It also utilizes a lighter aspen & maple core as well as special "micro-edges" to reduce weight even further. Karhu officially claims to have shaved 12 ounces off the Jak but our pair of 180cm Jak BCs come in at under 8 pounds and we never got a pair of 180 Jaks that weighed less than nine pounds. The dimensions remain the same. The result is a ski that is significantly quicker edge to edge, and of course less work in the backcountry on the uphill.

Jaks have always been a blast to ski, especially in the shorter lengths where they are easily maneuvered and simple to get hooked up into a carve. The Jak BC is no exception. The added stiffness of the BC model retains the Jaks excellent stability and crud busting ability even though it's lighter. The stiffer Jak BC also holds an edge on firm snow better than the straight Jak did, which was quite well in the shorter lengths, not as great in the 190cm model...perhaps due to reduced linear pressure per inch along the edge. We haven't tried a longer model Jak BC yet but would expect similar, or maybe even more dramatic, improvement in edge hold performance.

The 180cm Jak BC we tested was also noticeably more stable at much higher speeds, rivaling the older 190 Jak in this area.

Conclusion: Once again Karhu ski designer Francois Sylvain has accomplished something unique with the Jak BC. He has provided us with a really fat ski that gives up nothing in performance (actually moving ahead in every performance area!) while losing significant weight. Enough to make you think twice before grabbing a skinnier pair of boards to save energy on a backcountry day. It's like being able to have your cake and eat it too: a really fat, floaty, turny, strong edge-holding pair of skis with lower swing-weight and a vastly reduced weight penalty!

If you like big fat skis both in and out of the area and are looking for a versatile pair of boards that handle a wide variety of snow conditions and terrain with aplomb, you owe it to yourself to give the Jak BCs a spin, that is if you can find a pair, reports are they were selling out fast this past fall.

The Jak BCs are indeed a very unique pair of super-fats, and a whole lot of fun to ski.

[Affix Snow]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to el-bagr again.

Wow! Very Nice. Thanks alot!