Campons with Ice Axe

[NtrentT]

Sorry if this seems to be a worthless post but I would like to get some facts straight.

It wouldnt be such an issue but im going to tucks in april with my bestfried who hasnt been either and would like to get as much knowledge possible so that I retrun from tucks with a wonderful expierence and in once piece.

When posting about the crampons and such, Some one said you should use an ice axe along with it and it is not safe to use them with out one.
If i am using the crampons for added grip while climbing up the bowl, not climbing ice walls, do i need to use an ice axe?

Thanks all.

sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but, its better than making the voulenter ski patrol come down and rescue my ignorant butt.


<sorry about spelling, or if this sounds out of charactor for me.. ive had a few to many :beermug: and :beer: .


The sad thing is that the :chicken: and the :moose: beat me.

[Castlerock]

First as to the need for crampons, I skieed tucks for 20 years with out them. Several times I wanted them. Now I have them, and will not be without. Kicking a new boot ladder, After new snow, Early season, or early in the day. You might want them. A ski boot however is a great tool to kick steps if the snow is soft.

As for the ice axe. One or two on this board don't use it with crampons. The reason it is valuable is to stop you during a slide. Self arrest is the single most important skill to have climing something like Tucks. If you don't have an axe, and start sliding down, and your crampon catches in the snow, you can snap an ankle. Bad day.

The crampons can keep you from slipping, but the ice axe can stop you once you start sliding.

But again , 90 % of the skier's at Tucks use neither.

[TheOctopus]

Here's my non-beery but still biased opinion:

Think hard about why you want crampons: dealing with the hike between HoJo's and the floor of the ravine (or an early-season icy TR trail below HoJo's)? Or climbing what you're going to ski in the ravine before it's had a chance to soften? If it's the former, no need at all for an axe. If it's the latter, you MUST have an axe and know how to use it for self-arrest.

If, though, you're going in the spring and an early start to the day is not in your plans, then I personally don't think you'll *need* either tool.

Think also about whether you're going to want to ski down anything that you needed an axe and crampons to climb up. That is, unless your plan is an early morning start and you'll be sitting on top of the headwall waiting for things to thaw sufficiently to ski -- if yes, then go with the crampons and axe.

I've never had crampons on Mt. Washington for a skiing adventure (have used them for winter climbs). Have taken the axe skiing there, though. Very useful for self-belay and for chopping a platform to put the skis on....

YMMV.

[Jolly J]

Castlerock:
If you don't have an axe, and start sliding down, and your crampon catches in the snow, you can snap an ankle. Bad day.
Or cause you to starfish the rest of the way down the ravine.

[Castlerock]

Two additional thoughts. I have never even considered using crampons on the Tuckerman trail. That is almost silly. Sure it can be slippery, but the consequences of a fall are virtually non-existent.

Secondly, again echoing the Octopus, an ice axe can help greatly while climbing. Last April, I was climbing the right side of Left Gully (after fresh snow over hard ice with no boot ladder) and making the transition to the spine between the gully and the chute, the ice axe was of immeasurable help. There is something very secure in anchoring the shaft of the iceaxe two feet deep in the snowpack when you are face to face with an almost vertical wall of snow.

Now, I don't believe most first time Tucks visitors will go there or climb that way, but as Octopus infers, the ice axe is the best "first" snow tool to have.

[DMC]

Transition is where I'd really love an ice axe...
Those nasty traverses from climbing line to shelf... I feel more exposed there then any other time...

[RR]

Not a stupid question at all. And the foregoing responses cover the "real world" at TUX. The following is some general Beta:

A glacier-travel axe (straight shaft 70-75cm for a 6' person) ice axe will help by allowing one to rest on steep slopes when the long shaft is plunged into well consolidated snow and used as an anchor point. On especially steep snow the axe is repeatedly used in this fashion to create a moving self-belay. This technique is especially useful on traverses.

Self-arrest with an any style of axe during a fall is a skill that requires no small amount of practice to do safely.

If you are a regular backcountry type you might consider Black Diamond poles equiped with the Whippit self-arrest top sections. BD Probe poles or BD Expedition poles are the better choices for general BC use from the BD line.

Plenty of ski mountaineers use both Whippets and a mountaineering axe (straight or slightly curved shafts 60-65cm for a 6' person) or technical ice climbing axes (mostly with curved shafts, 45-60cm) on their tours. Naturally, crampons are also used.

Neither combination is required at TUX. Said combo has been used at Katahdin, but ice axes are likely to be preferred there.

[Castlerock]

Exactly!

Transition is always the most difficult, just ask a Mother (i'm dying to see who gets this one)

[M@]

Here be wisdom:

TheOctopus:
Think also about whether you're going to want to ski down anything that you needed an axe and crampons to climb up. The "Money Snow" will be easy to walk up in ski boots. If you're plan is a super day at Tux, you'll want to go when your pretty sure you'll get that money snow (sunny day, not unusually cold)

I'd say about 1 in 50 ppl in the ravine on a given spring day have crampons. About 1 in 10 of them actually wear them and pretty much everyone leaves with perma-grin.

As for you stated goal: "wonderful expierence and in once piece." My advice is don't bother with crampons unless you already have them. You might find yourslef getting frustrated with the new equipment instead of enjoying the ravine in all it's glory.

It's been shown, you don't need a lot of equipment to ski tuckerman: (i.e. :nakedguy: )

[I almost phrased that as "You need very little equipment... but that didn't sound right"]

[RR]

"[I almost phrased that as "You need very little equipment... but that didn't sound right"]
"

Not so sure that isn't spot on ;)

[Grasshopper]

Exactly!

Transition is always the most difficult, just ask a Mother (i'm dying to see who gets this one)

--I don't get it.

[Castlerock]

Wow, thanks for bringing this thread back.

I'm not sure anyone but the parents on the board got the joke....

"This is the most intense phase of labor, with contractions coming hard and fast, and with symptoms that may include shaking, shivering, and nausea. Some women who have been coping well up to this point begin to "lose it" during transition. They might reject those around them but clearly have trouble being left alone."

http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/177.html

[skicdave]

It's been shown, you don't need a lot of equipment to ski tuckerman: (i.e. :nakedguy: )

[I almost phrased that as "You need very little equipment... but that didn't sound right"]

Ha ha! Good one M@. Naked Guy 2004 definately didn't come out Easter Weekend. He'll probably be there in May no doubt.

[CP]

I thought the naked guy came out for the inferno race?

Anyway I always found that by carrying a small ski backpack (Dakine Helipro for example) with ski straps (skis strapped on back) for the climb up the ravine combined with a glacier style ice axe, no crampons, is a great combination. It makes it so much easier climbing up and you can rest/lean on the ice axe. Also any worry about falling off is negated by the comfort of being able to self arrest with the ice axe. You can now climb into areas you normally wouldn't.

I don't like the idea of having an ice axe strapped to my back on the way down. I ended my ice climbing career after taking a fall and cutting my legs with flailing crampons and spinning axes. However, I still think the risk of getting hurt by a properly stowed ice axe is very small.

[el-bagr]

I agree that the axe should be properly secured when not in use, especially for steep ski descents where you must be prepared for a fall. Assuming your axe is on the outside of your pack (typical), put the pack on and try to figure out what the axe would do in case of various types of falls. For example, if you carry it head-down, make sure the ferrule end will not spike your neck in a back-fall.

I do use head and spike covers, although not always when the axe is on my pack; they are primarily for storage (throwing them in the trunk along with sleeping bags, &c).

[pjmanchester]

I never use either......if i start to fall while hiking, well that is what my ski poles are for.....prop me right up and keep me from going down....only fell once in the 5 or so years ive been going up!.....late in the season like this the boot ladder up the bowl is sufficent enough for good traction.

[NtrentT]

WOW this is a wicked old post

I posted this around Sept of 2003 I think.

HEHE I have researched this further, I wont be bringing either on my trip.

[skicdave]

I thought the naked guy came out for the inferno race?

Anyway I always found that by carrying a small ski backpack (Dakine Helipro for example) with ski straps (skis strapped on back) for the climb up the ravine combined with a glacier style ice axe, no crampons, is a great combination. It makes it so much easier climbing up and you can rest/lean on the ice axe. Also any worry about falling off is negated by the comfort of being able to self arrest with the ice axe. You can now climb into areas you normally wouldn't.

I don't like the idea of having an ice axe strapped to my back on the way down. I ended my ice climbing career after taking a fall and cutting my legs with flailing crampons and spinning axes. However, I still think the risk of getting hurt by a properly stowed ice axe is very small.

CP that wasn't by chance while skiing the lip about 3 or 4 years ago was it?

[skicdave]

WOW this is a wicked old post

I posted this around Sept of 2003 I think.

HEHE I have researched this further, I wont be bringing either on my trip.

Ha ha! Yes its an old post brought back from the dead.... hey I even replyed to something M@ said in this post back in Sep.. :doh:

[CP]

Who thinks about ice axes and crampons in September... I needed to re-rationalize the argument for bringing them this year.

And no skicdave that wasen't me taking the fall there or skiing naked? I took the fall at Frankenstein cliffs where it was 20 below and dead winter. I had to keep asking myself if I was ever having fun even after the 30th climb and it is impossible to get life insurance for good reason.

As far as the naked guy; I would never tell if I did. Maybe you work for the USFS? :)

[DMC]

Crampons are actually a great tool to keep you from falling on your a ss coming back down the trail to Pinkham.
I prefer not to climb with them.. Use them in combo with a claw on one of my poles if we go up R Gully early...