Tucks Sustainability

[Bannick]

I am in the process of becoming LEEDs certified to put more ephasis on sustainable design in my Architecure. I look at the photos showing all that human traffic and it makes me think about the large potential for garbage, waste etc. being left behind.

Given the amount of people that can be found in the ravine in the spring do you think there is a point where there are too many?

Is all this traffic having a detrimental environmental effect?

I take extra garbage bags into the bush on fishing and hiking trips and more often than not I am picking up large ammounts of additional trash that I pack out with me at the end of the trip. It seems that no matter how far away I get the garbage is there.

There are wilderness areas that limit visits and rivers that limit the numbers of visitors in a season to lesson the impact on the environment. Is there or will there be a need for this type of approach in the ravine one day down the raod?

Just curious and would like to know what others think.

Don't just pack out what you pack in...pack out a little more.

B

[M@]

I usually bring a little more out than in. Felt kinda bad last time, I was zipping down the sherburn and whipped past a couple empty water bottles that had probably bounced out of someones pack. I was already 5 turns below them and didn't stop to go back up and get them. I was pretty wiped out... no good excuse. Last trip I took off my pack and boot holed into the woods a few yards to grab an empty potatoe chip bag... so maybe the Karma is bag to zero.

To answer the question: I've never expierenced a limit on a wildlife type enviornment (like yellowstone or fishing spots like you mention...) so I don't know how it would feel to have to "make reservations" to go to tuckerman. My feeling is that on the extremly busy weekends, the limit to how many people can physically hike up the TR trail limits it to a degree. There are already plenty of people who don't go becuase they know it'll be too crowded.

M@

[el-bagr]

Brilliant question, Bannick!

I do believe that natural landscapes have carrying capacities. There is undoubtedly degradation of the ravines and of the Cutler River watershed from the intense human use they receive, particularly at this season but to a large degree throughout the year.

M@ talks about permits and reservations. The Great Gulf Wilderness right there formerly had a permit and reservation system (for overnights only, IIRC). Almost all of the National Forest trailheads in the WMNF require a parking pass, which is somewhat like a permit (users per location are not managed, but it theoretically does cut down on overall users at the same time that it raises money for projects).

How about a volunteer stewardship program, where someone encourages others to pick up extra trash? You don't want to generate extra trash, but one could possibly hand out trash bags at Pinkham... or better yet, have a dedicated team of trashpickers for a spring cleaning.

[RR]

Awesome thread topic. The composting toilets at Hermit Lake have been the subject of a related study. I wonder what the data shows on that score?

I usually see some trash on every trip into the WMNF. Oddly enough I see less in TR than in most other places. Still, some folks manage to leave stuff lying around after they've gone.

[Tommy T]

The composting toilets at Hermit Lake have been the subject of a related study. I wonder what the data shows on that score?

I help the AMC as a volunteer, substitute shelter and campsite caretaker, providing coverage when the paid caretakers must take an unscheduled leave for illness or whatever. The shelters and campsites have the composting toilets and I have to at least record the temperatures of the compost piles each day.

The composting toilets are a mixed story. They are a solution to a real problem but are not particularly desirable in their own right. They are reasonably expensive to operate, requiring both a bulking agent (wood bark chips, for example) which is transported into the area and almost daily attention. A substantial part of the fee charged by the AMC at the caretaker-operated tent platform and shelter sites goes to the cost of maintaining the toilets (including paying the personnel who wouldn't be needed if the toilets weren't there). A shelter/campsite caretaker at a popular site like Liberty Springs can spend 20 hours a week dealing with the toilet and compost process. Much of the Appalacian Trail has composting toilets at every camp site. Along some sections of the Trail they are not well maintained and soon they overflow, the incomplete compost goes anaerobic, and the whole area begins to look and smell like commercial hog farm.

I think the ultimate solution is the Mt. McKinley one -- fecal matter goes into a bag and gets carried out. The Denali Park Ranger at Kahiltna International weighs the bags of departing expeditions to assure compliance.

Tommy T.

[moxieboy]

The Whites do get a hell of a lot of traffic, the ravine is lucky in a way that a lot of its traffic is this time of year when there is some snow around to protect it from physical dammage.

The trouble with limiting people in Presidentials is that there are so many access points, far too many to effectively control people coming in. Restricting use in Baxter State Park in Maine is very effective and will prolong the beauty up there forever. BUT, there are only a few places to enter, which makes it possible for the park service to limit use. The permiting process for Baxter in the winter also insures that people have enough experience to be safe on Katahdin. I am amazed that more inexperienced people don't get hurt in Tucks.

I think the real solution for a place like Tucks is to educate people more. If people really understood LNT backcountry principles the impact would be lowered significantly.

I for one would much rather see a thousand people enjoying Tuckerman's responsibly on a warm sunday in April, than to think they are at home in front of their tv.

[Justin]

. I am amazed that more inexperienced people don't get hurt in Tucks.
.


i think 131 is a considerable amount....

http://www.mountwashington.com/hiking/deaths.html

[Tommy T]

How about a volunteer stewardship program, where someone encourages others to pick up extra trash? You don't want to generate extra trash, but one could possibly hand out trash bags at Pinkham... or better yet, have a dedicated team of trashpickers for a spring cleaning.

The AMC has provided volunteer stewardship programs of several types. Under the guidance of the late Guy Waterman, a formal program was instituted along the Franconia Ridge alpine zone. Volunteers are present, especially on summer weekend, to talk to hikers about the fragile nature of the alpine environment, the importance of staying on existing trails and "leave no trace" etiquette.

In addition to physical trail maintenance, volunteer trail adopters do trash removal as a part of their regular three times a year routine and are encouraged to discuss stewardship issues with those who they meet on their trail.

I maintain the Tuckerman Crossover Trail and find really surprising things: lots of balloons, for example -- the hut crew at Lakes reports the same thing; a camera or binoculars, some quite nice, about once a year; a hard-back edition of Joyce's Ulysses-- weighed 3 1/2 pounds, probably carried up in case of a long bivouac.

The neatness of TR compared to some other sites is probably due to the present of a fairly substantial volunteer and professional staff being involved with the area year round.

Tommy T.

[Skilasnow]

I always pick up stuff when I see it. I think TR has largely been kept clean, I tto am impressed how little trash gets left behind with som many people using it.

[Justin]

I always pick up stuff when I see it. I think TR has largely been kept clean, I tto am impressed how little trash gets left behind with som many people using it.

My first overnight to TR i went up with a good budy of mine. We were very excited, we nearly fogot the bottle of whisky(and that says something)! none-the-less we jumped out of the car into a bright and sunny day and high tailed it to Hojo's without even thinking about where we were going to sleep/camp. this happened to be the weekend of the inferno aswell! so of course there was no room in the shelters when we got there. we talked to the care takers and they told us there where a few tent platforms to be cleared of and it cost 10bucks (i think). As you might imagine we had no money so they through us a plastic bag and told us to come back with trash and we could have a platform; which brings me to my point. It took us a damb long time to come up with anything significant.

when we returned they through us a shovel and we made for the platforms...FROZEN SOLID... we slept just above them on some moss!

needless to say we were up early (first ones ot the bowl)! Ate some breakfast @ lunch rocks and hit the lip... it was all woth it for fresh tuck :doh:

[M@]

Good story Justin!

M@

[Justin]

Good story Justin!

M@

the trip forum might be more appropriate place for it huh :doh:


It begins...Sox 3 Yanks 1

[RR]

It begins...Sox 3 Yanks 1

Concussion patient to visitor at the hospital: "Yeah, I whupped the huge guy in the Yankees cap, but the little guy with the Orioles cap snuck up behind me and wham...the lights went out".

[Justin]

Concussion patient to visitor at the hospital: "Yeah, I whupped the huge guy in the Yankees cap, but the little guy with the Orioles cap snuck up behind me and wham...the lights went out".

Orioles are looking better than ever...with just over a hundred games left to go!

[Bannick]

The Whites do get a hell of a lot of traffic, the ravine is lucky in a way that a lot of its traffic is this time of year when there is some snow around to protect it from physical dammage.

I noticed at Ranier this year that they ask you not go off the trail for snowshoeing or BC Sking or riding untill there is a sufficient base to protect the delicate plants etc. I think it was like a minimum of 4 feet or something.

I have a seminar on green roofs tomorrow which I am looking forward to. I think roof top gardens of alpine plants in a downtown city setting would be amazing not to mention the lowering of the city tempertures due to heat gain.

The whole issue leaves many questions that have been attacked with varying degrees of sucess. Recently the bruce trail near me has limited mountain bike access in sections because the riders were going off trail and damaging sensitive areas.

[RR]

...I have a seminar on green roofs tomorrow which I am looking forward to. I think roof top gardens of alpine plants in a downtown city setting would be amazing not to mention the lowering of the city tempertures due to heat gain

Check out the Ford Motor Company living roof on their Rouge Plant: http://www.ford.com/en/goodWorks/environment/cleanerManufacturing/rougeRenovation.htm

[Skilasnow]

WOW, Go Ford!!! :)

[Bannick]

Ya that is pretty cool. Will there soon be large ad campaigns proclaiming the virtues of the new 2008 Ford Beefsteak Tomato vs the rest of the big three?

Green roof are pretty keen....but the issue at hand is how to convince a cost concious client that the long term economic and environmental gains far outweigh the intitial increase capital investment. Green roofs are 2-3 times more than a convential modified bit roof system. But green roofs last almost forever (typical flat roofs are only designed for a 15 year life span), are relatively maintenance free (depending on vegitation type etc), clean the air, reduce the heat gain and promote and environmental issues.

The other thing learned is that cities create their own rain shadow of sorts that divert rain around them, forcing rain to fall in increased amounts to the lee of the city. So much so that areas to the east of Atlanta have had increased problems with flooding while the rain fall amounts in the city are way down.