First snow contest

[Frankontour]

What about to start a new contest... for the first snow to hit the ravine this fall. Ok, I'm a little bit fast, cause it should be quite far from now, but it would be cool to have a new contest, I think. Don't you ?

I have absolutely no idea of the date when it should fall for the 1st time, so I think I will say sept 23, the date of my fake image for the last snow contest. I don't think it's necessary to put a hour as it will probably be overnight anyway.


---------------------------------

Here is an update of the predictions for the contest :

August 29 : Jolly J OUT :cry:
August 31 : Ski&Ride OUT :cry:
Sept 8 : Elwood OUT :cry:
Sept 12 : BerkshiresBoarder OUT :cry:
Sept 12 : NHski OUT :cry:
Sept 13 : Bannick OUT :cry:
Sept 15 : jdew OUT :cry:
Sept 18 : pepperdawg OUT :cry:
Sept 20 : kmrnskier OUT :cry:
Sept 23 : Frankontour OUT :cry:
Sept 23 : Snowmonger OUT :cry:
Sept 25 : Mumster OUT :cry:
Sept 27 : Lftgly OUT :cry:
Sept 28 : Blade Girl OUT :cry:
Sept 29 : Steveboarder
Sept 30 : Boarder25
Oct 1 : RR
Oct 2 : skicdave
Oct 3 : NH_tele
Oct 4 : SkiLasLeñas ??????
Oct 4 : 2plankerknuckledraggerVTr
Oct 10 : M@
Oct 12 : TenSeven
Oct 13 : Stoogie power

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: M@ ]</small>

[boarder25]

I'm thinking Sept.30th. Even though I'll be praying that it snows much sooner.

[Jolly J]

As Long as it doesn't have to stick around. August 29th. If it has to stick around for the season, October 31.

[elwood]

If I had my way (I would tear this whole building down).

No really, if I had my way it would be August 12, 2003 at precisely 8:07AM...

[Frankontour]

Lol, me too Elwood, but I don't think it happened, unluckily (nothing visible at 8h12).

For snow, I mean the first snow to blanket the ravine (not just melting snow invisible to the cam) and it doesn't need to stay until winter.

[snowmonger]

September 23

[M@]

October 10th. i.e. 2003-10-10

M@ :ducttape:

[Steveboarder]

Hmmmmm September 29th

[ski&ride]

I'll say August 31. Partly for wishful thinking, but also because I'll be hiking up the TR trail that day (it will be crowded, I imagine). It would be sweet to see snow dusting the ravine while I'm there!
Ski&Ride

[pepperdawg]

September 18 - cold front bangs into some hi-level moisture creating a thursday nite dusting...??

[BerkshiresBoarder]

I am going with the same date as last season's first snow was, September 12

[elwood]

OK,

My time already passed. For a real guess I am saying September 8, 2003. That's 9/8/03. Or 8/9/03 for our Canadian friends. :D

[Bannick]

I will go with 13 September 2003. What the hell it is my birthday.

[Mumster]

Sept 25 - that's the skidudes Birthday.

[Frankontour]

Very thanks for the information about last year, BerkshiresBoarder. I didn't know at all when it could begin to fall. The earliest natural snow I've seen from my own eyes was in 1994, on oct 1 at Camel's Hump (2") so I guessed on September 23. Let's pray for august snowfalls :D I don't care to lose the contest of that way !!

For a prize... hmm, good question, I should try to find that

[kmrnskier]

I'll say September 20th, or hoping for, at least.

[Skilasnow]

10-04-04

[Mumster]

SkiLasLeñas:
10-04-04 04 :confused:

[jdew]

Since birthdays are a popular choice, I'll go with mine, September 15th. I can't think of a better birthday present . . .I take that back, I can't think of several , but I'll take the snow.
:snowboarding:

[skicdave]

September 11th seems to be a likely day, but I'll take October 2nd.

Actually I've been hiking up just north on Mt Adams mid October and ended up hiking the summit in a blizzard. Next day we were in waist deep snow!

How are we going to differ between a bit of frost and snow? Might be difficult relying on the cam to make the call.

[Bannick]

if there is snow in the ravine then the Observatory should be reporting snow too. I would think anyway.

[Frankontour]

Good point Bannick... and I would add that if we see a big white zone, in the ravine, it would probably be snow.

Let's pray for august snows ;)

[BladeGirl]

Somewhere between optomism (NOW) and pessimism (November), I'll guess September 28.

[Frankontour]

Ok, so here is a little summary up to now for the predictions :

August 29 : Jolly J
August 31 : Ski&Ride
Sept 8 : Elwood
Sept 12 : BerkshiresBoarder
Sept 13 : Bannick
Sept 15 : jdew
Sept 18 : pepperdawg
Sept 20 : kmrnskier
Sept 23 : Frankontour
Sept 23 : Snowmonger
Sept 25 : Mumster
Sept 28 : Blade Girl
Sept 29 : Steveboarder
Sept 30 : Boarder25
Oct 2 : skicdave
Oct 4 : SkiLasLeñas ??????
Oct 10 : M@


SkiLasLeñas, could you confirm us that you think of Oct 4, 2003... and not 2004 ?? ;)

[Lftgly]

I'll take Sat., Sept. 27.

Bannick, if you're right, Wildcat has a "ski free on your birthday" deal!

[Frankontour]

Is Tucks free on my birthday august 1, Lftgly ? hehe

M@, I find you quite pessimist. Your prediction for last snow was the first one... and your prediction for the first snow is the last one ;)

Ski Stooge, we need your prediction... and you have your title to defend !!!

The forecast for saturday is good, for the ravine. So there is good chances that I will see if there is still some snow in the place, under a rock or so (or if Stoogie is hidden somewhere with white clothes !)

[RR]

batting only .500 now, I'll take October 1st.

[BladeGirl]

To pick up a thread from another topic, perhaps as this is the TFT Board, the ski season officialls starts with the first snow at Tucks, and does not end until the snow is all gone. Leaving us with a short off-season in which to dream about snow...
-BG

[Mumster]

BG-
I'm uncomfortable with the concept of "off season". It's always ski season (somewhere). It just becomes less convenient for us to access the snow for awhile.

[SkiStooge]

I believe Wildcat will at least give a free gondy ride on your b-day. (Mine's 6/3/way back)


Have fun, be safe. Al :skistooge:

[NHski]

I am going with September 12th, girlfriends b-day

[Bannick]

hmmmm free day on your birthday eh???
Come on global cooling!!!!

[Frankontour]

The update of the predictions is now on the 1st message of this thread ;)

[Frankontour]

This morning almost looked like there was snow.
It's just some clouds, but the pic worth the look, you can believe me !!

So here is it.... enjoy !
Looking like heaven on top (http://cf.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankontour502/vwp?.dir=/Mes+photos&.dnm=Mt+Wash+2003-08-19.jpg&.view=t)

[DMC]

Bannick:
Come on global cooling!!!! I like that... That should be on a teeshirt!

Global Cooooling.... drooooooool.....

[elwood]

Yeah, when's the next Ice Age gonna hit???!?!?!?

[Bannick]

Check these out...

http://www.globalclimate.org/Newsweek.htm newsweek 1975

http://www.mountwashington.org/notebook/transcripts/1998/05/25.html

http://www.nature.com/nsu/991202/991202-11.html

My board is waxed and ready!

[M@]

So what's the offical rule here? "Snow visible in the webcam?"

I'm betting it'll snow one night, and there will be a patch or two visible in the cam.

[Frankontour]

I was asking me ± the same question actually...

The problem is that if there is some snow in the ravine, we will probably not see it on the webcam until it's all gone.....

So I said in the 1st message that it was in the ravine, but I wonder if it's not better to consider the top, where it's always possible to see if there is some snow on the deck.

Tell me what you think about this and if we're ± all agreeing, people who thought it was only in the ravine could change their prediction, but only to make it closer of today. (Cuz the snow will surely hit the summit before the ravine... and accept to delay the prediction would be too much easy for Jolly J ;)

[BladeGirl]

We had to use the webcam for the last snow contest because that is not covered in the weather report (or is it?) but can't we rely on an official report for when the first snow falls? It may not stay, but it should count.

-BG

ps: Lately it has been quite a Herculean (but fun) effort to keep up wit postings. I used to just check once a day in the morning and that was enough, but now it seems I need to leave the Board up all day and keep checking (OK, it IS more interesting than much of my work right now). However, I am going away for a long weekend to Toronto, so try not to overload the board too much, so can catch up sometime next week. Ciao for now.

[Frankontour]

BladeGirl:
We had to use the webcam for the last snow contest because that is not covered in the weather report (or is it?) but can't we rely on an official report for when the first snow falls? It may not stay, but it should count.

-BG

ps: Lately it has been quite a Herculean (but fun) effort to keep up wit postings. I used to just check once a day in the morning and that was enough, but now it seems I need to leave the Board up all day and keep checking (OK, it IS more interesting than much of my work right now). However, I am going away for a long weekend to Toronto, so try not to overload the board too much, so can catch up sometime next week. Ciao for now. You're right, there will certainly be a report, when the 1st snow will fall on top. Probably no report for the ravine, but surely, for the top. So it should be the best confirmation, although I'm sure few of us will stay near the webcam when they forecast some snow ;)

Not easy effectively to be up to date with all the different threads... but with a gang of skiers/boarders missing the snow like us, we're not responsible of our behaviour and writing so much do pass the summer faster :D

Have a good long weekend in Kannadda :)

[Frankontour]

I began to update the outs this morning.

Jolly J, we're all sorry for you... we all hoped that you won this contest !!!!

[Jolly J]

Oh well...usually there is a trace in August. This year just rime. Oh well....

[2plankerider]

i know it's taken BUT i gotta pick Oct. 4 (although i am picking 3003) :D it's my anniversary. we got married at Smuggler's Notch and the night before it snowed about 2 inches. my wifes aunt drove her corvette from MASS and was freakin' out while driving through the notch in a snowstorm. well now i rambling on. pretty funny story though. this thread made me think of it.
it's gonna snow sooner BUT i gotta pick it.

[2plankerider]

DOH!
was concentrating on the 03 not the 20.
Oct. 4 2003 :D

[SkiStooge]

I did Washington Saturday and got hit with a few minutes of errant hail/snow on the Nelson Crag Trail (descending). Didn't stick to the ground much but it got me kinda stoked for thing to come. Overall, the day was WINDY and rainy/overcast/clearing/rainy/overcast,etc,etc. Normal Washington day, in general. OK, Have fun, be safe. Al :skistooge:

[SkiStooge]

PS: This is NOT intended as an entry into the first snow contest. lol

[Frankontour]

SkiStooge:
PS: This is NOT intended as an entry into the first snow contest. lol Why don't you enter, Stoogie ?? You already won the Last Snow Contest, you don't want to humiliate us, winning this one too ?

Oh, I think I have found a prize for you. M@ will bring your skipack to Tucks, next time you go ;)

This is not the price for winning the First Snow Contest, though :p

Nice story, 2plankerknuckledraggerVTr. I hope by oct 4, there will be already 2" of snowfalls on Smuggs... and 2' at Tucks :D

BTW Important rule : I think that if the snow falls on a day where there is 2 persons, there is 2 winners, that's all. Unless there is some objections ?

[SkiStooge]

OK. A Stooge prediction: First REAL snow is going to occur during the night of October 12-13. So I'm going to say October 13th, 2003. Have fun, be safe. Al :skistooge:

[TenSeven]

12 October 2003

[M@]

Whose calling me a pessimist now? I think my 10-10 guess is pure gold. White gold that is.

Sometimes I'd rather be scorpio than Member #007 secret agent man... but I do have my enourmas MoJo.

I put the MAN in TuckerMAN BABY!

[NH_tele]

I'll go with October 3rd...

Seems like a good day, although I hope it will be earlier!

[Frankontour]

M@:
Whose calling me a pessimist now? I think my 10-10 guess is pure gold. White gold that is.

Let me remind you that last year, it was on sept 12, according to our national snow archivist BerkshiresBoarder !

It would be too tough to do a contest for the first snow to really stay on the mountain all winter long. We would just know it in december...

I updated the 1st message of the thread with the 3 new predictions ;)

[Frankontour]

M@:
Fronko-Non-American:
You are still here, so you are still running the first snow contest.

We had a recent claim of snow on MtWash, and I could find no evidence.

How do you plead? I won't ask me why you wrote this name, will consider it like without "back-thoughts"

"Still here" is a big word. Lurking a bit, but I couln't pass beside this great event for Bannick !

About the 1st snow contest, what ?? some snow ? I didn't hear/read about that and honestly wasn't looking the summit cam, as it was always in the 50s or high 40s in the ravine, during nights, so I would be very surprised if some snow had fallen down on the summit, although it's not impossible.

Anyone saw that snow ??

[Frankontour]

Hey Snowmonger, it's possible we chose the right day. Forecast for sept 23 : Min in the ravine : 42, with rain...

This looks like 30 with snow on the summit.

It still can change, though... but we have a little chance !

[NH_tele]

bump

Any more news on the contest?

[gwest]

Looks pretty good for snow later this week, at least some snow showers. The best way to verify whether or not they have snow up there is to look at their hourly observations. I dont know the best way for you to look these up. I'll try to keep an eye on it myself. but you can go to this page http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/surface/ and where it says "enter 4-letter ICAO id" type "kmwn" and then you can choose number of hours to look back through, and then hit "retrieve". That'll give you the hourly observations, they're in METAR code. But if you look through and see "SN" anywhere in the reports, then theyve had snow.

[gwest]

oh yeah..i forgot, you can check this page too, probably easier http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/today.html

[skicdave]

I could be close with Oct 2nd!

[BerkshiresBoarder]

Well, it may not have accumulated much, but the observatory saw its first snow today, september 29! Here's the only info i could find from www.mountwashington.org (http://www.mountwashington.org)

Latest 6 PM (22) Sep 29 W 16 light snow grains; fog
5 PM (21) Sep 29 W 16 light snow showers ; fog

[Frankontour]

I think the contest was the first report of the observatory talking of snow... more than some accumulations visible on the webcam.

So the winner should be Steveboarder on this point.

Snowflakes or accumulations... that remains a good question, though. I think we need a poll for that ;) Personnaly, I vote for the "snowflakes", cause even though it doesn't stick on the ground, it remains SNOW !! But what do you all think about that ?

:snowflakes: ?
accumulations ?
or of course :chicken: ?
???

[RR]

Snow is snow. It fell from the sky and seems to have landed on the ground.

Congrats to Steveboarder!

[BladeGirl]

Dang, missed it by one day! And I did the snow ritual dance on my day, too!

-BG

[DMC]

Sure it may've snowed at the summit but did it snow in the Ravine?

As many of us know that have been up there in winter/spring it is VERY liklely that the weather in the bowl does not match the weather at the summit...

I'm not in the contest - just throwing in my .02...

[skicdave]

I haven't seen any snow in the ravine looking at the cam when its clear. I'd say this was a false truth and we should disregard such statements until the evidence renders a proper judgement. Maybe we need an elected committee or special panel to advise us of absolute truths. :cooldog:

[pepperdawg]

skicdave:
I haven't seen any snow in the ravine looking at the cam when its clear. I'd say this was a false truth and we should disregard such statements until the evidence renders a proper judgement. Maybe we need an elected committee or special panel to advise us of absolute truths. :cooldog: Perhaps some sort of 'fact-finding' mission into the ravine would be in order....??? Volunteers?? ;)

[DMC]

skicdave:
Maybe we need an elected committee or special panel to advise us of absolute truths. I elect the Bush Whitehouse!!!
ohh... maybe not...

I think you should email the caretaker and ask him/her...

[Frankontour]

in august, BG told us it was better to do the contest with the summit, cuz we would have a report for the 1st snow. I found it was a good idea and nobody expressed it was a wrong idea...

we can have another contest for the snow especially in the ravine :p ... but it will probably be later this week...

BTW, the summit is now clear and all is perfectly white... it's incredibly beautiful to see !!!

[RR]

lol, a fine shot DMC!

[DMC]

RR:
lol, a fine shot DMC! Right across the bow!!!!

the contest....
So - I'll just shutup about the contest... If was agreed the Summit then so be it... To be honest I really havent been paying too much attention to this thread..

[kfarrar]

I just read an article about a guy who straped on waterskis, mounted with alpine binding, skied down a 45 degree pitch over the edge of cliff and parachuted to the bottom.

He chose waterskis to float on a the very deep powder.

[RR]

An advanced degree in Obfuscation is a resume requirement for all White House occupants and staff.

Extra consideration is given for thick skin, after all, it's the toughest workplace I know of.

Not a rant, more like shocked awe!

[DMC]

Those mo-fo's are obfuscating thier :bum: 's off right now....

[Steveboarder]

wow guess I was too busy :atwork: Did I win? hey look at the summit now! :D http://www.mountwashington.org/cam/deck/index.php

[Frankontour]

Steveboarder:
Did I win? It depends of the opinions. According to the contest starter ( :p ): Yes ! but the "contest starter" feels really alone in his decision now.

Basically, my idea behind this contest was to determine the date where the first snowflakes would fall on Mt Washington, no matter where, in the mountain. Next year, it will be easier... we'll just have 4-5 different contests and everyone will be happy :p

First snow to hit the top
First accumulations on the top
First visible snow in the ravine
First snow that will continue to be visible in the ravine until winter... etc.

Your Price : there is few possibilities...

I don't think that the other TMC members would agree to give you "The Secret Link" although you're not in TMC.

If you come to a "T4T day" in the ravine, we could take a lot of pics of one of your run, from different angles to give your great memories of your run (lol... not a super idea neither)

Other than that, I don't especially see what could be your price... any idea someone ?

[Steveboarder]

almost halfway to the TMC!

[TenSeven]

I was just at the Observatory home page and went to the camera on the summit. There's snow on the ground in front of the "lighthouse". Granted, you couldn't put together a decent snowball fight with it, but it's snow. It's so close. We're about 6 degrees celcius...um...about 10 degrees farenheit cooler than seasonal here.

[Frankontour]

TenSeven:
There's snow on the ground in front of the "lighthouse". Granted, you couldn't put together a decent snowball fight with it, but it's snow. It's so close. Did you look at this page ? (there is a pic of the snow this morning)

http://timefortuckerman.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000967

[M@]

I thought it was first visible snow in the webcam, as that's the opposite of the "last visible" we did for the first contest, and this is all why I was so explicit about what the contest entailed.

The reason I think this is the way to go is becuase visible snow is "useable" snow. If you can see snow in the webcam, you can ski it. Maybe it'll ruin your skiis, and suck pretty bad, but like the last visible snow, you could ski it.

And it was in the RAVINE. Remember the RAVINE? Tuckerman Ravine? The name of this website is timeforTUCKERMAN, not timeforMtWASHINGTON

M@

[TenSeven]

It was just exciting to see snow. It definitely doesn't count in the first snow contest.

[Frankontour]

M@:
And it was in the RAVINE. Remember the RAVINE? Tuckerman Ravine? The name of this website is timeforTUCKERMAN, not timeforMtWASHINGTON Yes, you're right. We absolutely never talk of Hillman's, Great Gulf, East snowfields, Gulf Of Slides & all the other places... those places are absolutely never talked of on this website........................

the way I understood the last snow contest was that it's obvious that the last place on the mountain that keeps the snow in summer is Tuckerman Ravine... so we look to the Tucks cam. So on the same base, it's obvious that the 1st place to have some snow on the mountain is the summit, in fall, so we should look at this one.

Too bad that it wasn't clear for many persons on the board. Next year if there is a contest, we'll know how to make it very clear to avoid this kind of discussion.

Now it's too late to begin to say that OK, it's the 1st snow to hit the ravine , as many people on the board were considering the first snow on the top, too, in their predictions.

[Skilasnow]

Frankontour:
What about to start a new contest... for the first snow to hit the ravine this fall. Just to point out what the original contest text said from Franks first post in this thread. "... to hit the ravine..."

[kmrnskier]

kfarrar:
I just read an article about a guy who straped on waterskis, mounted with alpine binding, skied down a 45 degree pitch over the edge of cliff and parachuted to the bottom.

He chose waterskis to float on a the very deep powder. Where was this, and when?

[Frankontour]

SkiLasLeñas:
Frankontour:
What about to start a new contest... for the first snow to hit the ravine this fall. Just to point out what the original contest text said from Franks first post in this thread. "... to hit the ravine..." SLL, don't forget this : (august 28)

I was asking me ± the same question actually...
The problem is that if there is some snow in the ravine, we will probably not see it on the webcam until it's all gone.....

So I said in the 1st message that it was in the ravine, but I wonder if it's not better to consider the top, where it's always possible to see if there is some snow on the deck.

Tell me what you think about this and if we're ± all agreeing, people who thought it was only in the ravine could change their prediction, but only to make it closer of today. (Cuz the snow will surely hit the summit before the ravine... and accept to delay the prediction would be too much easy for Jolly J

There is just BG who answered... with a good idea... and nobody changed their prediction....

After the msg of BG

You're right, there will certainly be a report, when the 1st snow will fall on top. Probably no report for the ravine, but surely, for the top. So it should be the best confirmation, although I'm sure few of us will stay near the webcam when they forecast some snow

So what can I do. I never got feedback about this. Considering the high rate of reading on the site, I thought that the people in the contest would feel concerned and read that... and were agreeing this if they didn't answer.

May be it's better now to just cancel this whole s... cause seeing the 1st snow of the year is really not a reason to fight... except if it's for the first turns, of course ;)

But Steve, for me, you remain the winner... especially if you were predicting for the summit.

[Steveboarder]

ok i'll be the summit winner but more importantly we need a first snow in the ravine winner.

[DMC]

Steve.... I'll buy you a :beermug: for being the Summit winner!!! And another :beermug: for being a boarder :)

[NHski]

this bickering over a first snow contest is ridiculous. Who the **** cares?

[skicdave]

Don't worry Franko! The first snow contest isn't supposed to be so serious, well not as serious as like say... hmm... The Bachelor... or Paradise Hotel... even... even SURVIVOR!! There is no big price money, no becoming a celebrity, no being mauled by hordes of women, no being starved yet able to go bare :bum: for no reason.

We'll all live our lives regardless with no regrets. Hey I even forgot who won the last snow contest! (sorry to the winner). :eek:

I am now ready for the

First mid winter snowfall of at least 2.5" on the rock with the big red X on it at Lunch Rocks with snow remaining at least 7.75 hours once we already have 30 ft of accumlation on average in the base of the ravine below the headwall contest.

[DMC]

NHski:
this pickering over a first snow contest is ridiculous. Who the **** cares? Just let me know when I can ride the stuff...

I AM getting stoked for the season....
stoke stoke stoke stoke....

[Skilasnow]

Frankontour:
SkiLasLeñas:
Frankontour:
What about to start a new contest... for the first snow to hit the ravine this fall. Just to point out what the original contest text said from Franks first post in this thread. "... to hit the ravine..." SLL, don't forget this : (august 28)
I don't care Frank. I was just pointing out the original language used.

[kfarrar]

KMRN - It was an article in the october issue of Ski or Skiing magzine. I'll search for it tonight and get back to on the details.

The guy combined is love of base jumping and skiing. I don't know what made him think of waterskis.

[Skilasnow]

good one :skicdave: but I think yet more parameters are in order.... and they should include :cooldog: or :skibear: or :moose: :chicken: possibly even :baconeggs:

[NHski]

kfarrar:
KMRN - It was an article in the october issue of Ski or Skiing magzine. I'll search for it tonight and get back to on the details.

The guy combined is love of base jumping and skiing. I don't know what made him think of waterskis. I think shane teamed up with a ski company and came out with a reverse camber, reverse side cut ski. Looks a lot like a water ski.

[pepperdawg]

Reminds me of a segment in one of the TB (Totally board - Snowboard Vids) - where a guy is on a surfboard (with the skegs still on the bottom) floating thru some deep pow and trees in Tahoe......Mmmmmmmm Pow is cool...

[Skilasnow]

kfarrar:
KMRN - It was an article in the october issue of Ski or Skiing magzine. I'll search for it tonight and get back to on the details.

The guy combined is love of base jumping and skiing. I don't know what made him think of waterskis. Skiing (October) I was just catching up with that very magazine after having been woken up by a drunk housemate who decided to crank his stereo to 10, or was it 11... anyway couldn't get back to sleep because he turned it down... all the f'n way to 9.5!!! F*&K, he usually cool but forgets sometimes that other people sleep when it is dark outside. (he works 3rd shift sometimes)

[elwood]

Awww f*** it....

[Skilasnow]

NHski:
I think shane teamed up with a ski company and came out with a reverse camber, reverse side cut ski. Looks a lot like a water ski. They claim they are truely waterskis and it was for power floatation, he may well have developed snow skis after that