Wildness, blogs, guidebooks, Ski Wars, and personal bans

[bristlecone]

You have my respect for your love of the sport and your willingness to share it with others! All of the greats have done the same using the media of the day.
I wonder if Brooks Dodge and Brad Wasburn had to deal with the same issues.

This is an excellent question that I did some thinking on. I think that the debate between broad participation and elitism/purism is really a false one. Instead, our approach to wild places is at least as important as the numbers of us enjoying those places - not just for our collective experience and everyone's safety, but also for the physical impact that we leave on places.

In decades past, Guy and Laura Waterman made eloquent arguments for wildness (in Wilderness Ethics (http://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Ethics-Preserving-Wildness-Appreciation/dp/0881502561) and others), preserving that sense of wildness by moving quietly and softly through the backcountry in small groups, leaving the details there rather than broadcasting them out to the world, and especially by not superimposing upon it the goal-driven, bragging-right-centered mindset that comes from our particular modern world.

Thing is, I like reading TRs, especially the ones that convey the experience while leaving the details vague and the spot on the map unmarked. Particularly when photos are carefully selected to avoid the giveaway landmarks, I don't think the sense of wildness is too terribly shattered.

Another line of argument would go something like, 'why encourage people with tempting TRs without putting dots on the map so they know how to safely get out?' I don't go for that argument so much, although I see the point in cases such as a blind-from-the-top and increasingly internet-famous exit ravine looking rather different :eek: as it melts out than it did a month ago in lots of TRs.

Plenty of trips/places just aren't reported - another way to find a balance.

Further digging did indeed reveal that this debate has been going on for some time...

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss104/jm5114/tonifree2.jpg

[boardman]

Thoughtful post, bristlecone. I generally feel the same way, and local H's post in another thread gave me something to think about. I think I will probably seek to be more circumspect in my TR's, though really, anything I've ever posted about is readily available to anyone visiting Pinkham Notch, where they sell Dave Goodman's book. But as I said elsewhere, respect for the area, for private property, and for others, combined with a leave no trace ethic is what I think really needs to be hammered home, moreso than griping about people publicizing obvious and well-traveled ski terrain.

[drewvw]

Total agreement here. I also love that they basically skied in chinos for like 40 years....brilliant.

The FIS guys should def do a reenactment TR of Toni and the gang in period correct clothing. (ding ding idea!).

[PwdrHound]

Sorry I'm lame and don't post many, but I too enjoy reading TR's. However, I could really go without FIS serving up the latest, greatest, sickest ski p0rn this side of the Rockies. Whether it be still photos or their ridiculously edited video masterpieces. I just don't need that sort of motivation and perfection in my face on a damn near daily basis...it's just not good for my self-esteem! FIS, can I ask for a little courtesy regarding this matter? You're ruining it for everyone ;)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FiBYJhu0fKA/S9b5bhHRYDI/AAAAAAAAa6k/g0mMi58HkYs/s800/ToniFIS.jpg

[bristlecone]

Rich!!

Welcome back.

[RR]

There is no ruination like erosion..all else is Chimerical.

That is all.

Not quite....

My ethic is my own.

Insisting that someone must follow my ethicical principles diminishes them. Of course, if by strength of reason they may be able to compell me to their ethic, diminishing me....

Better I think that we accept that we each have ethics, each to their own, and live peaceably with one another.

[Skidmarks]

Great Idea! I just wet myself
I'll have to comment later..

[boardman]

There is no ruination like erosion..all else is Chimerical.

That is all.

Not quite....

My ethic is my own.

Insisting that someone must follow my ethicical principles diminishes them. Of course, if by strength of reason they may be able to compell me to their ethic, diminishing me....

Better I think that we accept that we each have ethics, each to their own, and live peaceably with one another.

Just can't agree with this, Rob. Too individualistic for me where a common good is at stake. Too Nietzsche, I guess. I think a Kantian moral imperative is more applicable here. There has to be a baseline to which we can all (or the majority) can agree -- Leave No Trace, for example. Do unto others . . . , is another one. On most other things, though, I tend to agree with you. For example, people should be allowed to huck themselves off stupidly high, gnarly cliffs. Don't like it? Then don't do it! But don't deprive others!

[kingdom-tele]

This is going to be hard to believe for some, but there are places to go ski where there are NO people, here, in new england, a short drive from millions of people - I know, I ski them all the time - alone or not. the funny thing is, after years of standing alone in the woods or on summits, when you happen to cross paths with another person doing the same thing, you become sociable, supportive, positive -

kind of ironic really - get further and further from people the more you begin to appreciate a quick conversation and run in with people in those enviorments

make all the guidebooks, blogs, TR's you want - its a tip of an iceberg, it you are feeling so threatened by stories, GPS tracks, google earth maps, and people enjoying themselves, maybe its time to get off the tip.

[skimtwashington]

Long ago and before the internet- this site and others- people just went up and explored and found trails, trees, snowfields, scaurs, slides and other place to ski from scouting and bushwacking around. ...... Maybe there was word of mouth from someone.....if any. Most wanted to keep places secret.There WERE a few guidebooks on backcountry ski spots..but lots of places where not known or mentioned.

I remember bringing a friend to ski with just me, on a trail that has wonderful tree skiing. And the group that first showed me the trail was initially OUTRAGED :mad:when they found out I had taken him with me. They thought this was their secret - that only a few knew about....and I betrayed them. I wanted to share with him this great place..have great company and be safer when I had only myself to ski.

Later , I brought that same friend with the whole group....after a heated discussion( I said," if you don't let me bring him...I'll ski with just him- and go to the same place anyways...you might as well decide we'll all go together"). By not long into the trip... They WANTED him in the group! He brought great Ski ability, his knowledge of his own secret places that he was willing to 'trade' with them ,and general fun and laughter. They still didn't want any other 'new' people to come ...but it was a topic to hide away until the future...

This site, although called Time For Tuckerman, is really about BC skiing in general. People want to share, entertain, hook up, INFORM newbies...or experienced..... and just BLOG! ? I enjoy these TR and other general posts. But what is this site doing(or FIS) for the backcountry skiers experience?

What is NOT COOL to blog about?

There are some obvious opinions...I'm just trying to clarify the question.

[boardman]

There is a well-established "show, don't tell" ethic on this website when it comes to more out-of-the-way places. Has been since I logged on several years back. And TR's from those places have always been circumspect. But it would be hard to argue that the West Side of Mt. Washington is one of those places. Nevertheless, I can see, to some degree, some folks getting their panties in a bunch about overpublicizing the place, though I think its popularity, given its characteristics (easy access, short approach, etc.) was inevitable. Trip reports from FIS and T4T, for me at least, inspire and motivate me, often make me laugh, and frequently give me an idea about what's going on up there as far as stability issues and conditions overall. I don't think that's a bad thing. But I do empathize with those who worry about access issues if gumbies start getting in over their heads, or trash the place, etc. Which is where mentoring of newbies by BC veterans comes in, I think.

[stoneman]

Kingdom, all that is certainly true, but i don't see you posting detailed TR's with GPS coordinates & maps to those places.
Nice story mtWash, i'm sure alot of us can recite very similar occurances. I think it does a good job of illustrating exactly what blogging is not. The audience of a TR is not a friend, a buddy or "the group", it is the entire world.

[boardman]

Kingdom, all that is certainly true, but i don't see you posting detailed TR's with GPS coordinates & maps to those places.
Nice story mtWash, i'm sure alot of us can recite very similar occurances. I think it does a good job of illustrating exactly what blogging is not. The audience of a TR is not a friend, a buddy or "the group", it is the entire world.

nor have I seen any such details in TRs in this forum, Stoneman.

[kingdom-tele]

don't own a GPS - use a compass

way to lazy to write and make TR's, the internet is for wasting time at work, beside all of my pics look the same, low angle woods, thick evergreens, and my dog - who would really care.

if anyone needs a bit of seclusion I am a PM away - just ask that you not get offended by silence

[drewvw]

show don't tell, when you boil it down its really pretty simple.

That and don't abuse the parking locations...idiots.

[Joe E.]

I started some video TR's wanting to increase stoke for my little local area. I never thought about local outrage in the BC community here, while showing maps of our section of the Greens on my vids. I wanted to include vague map shots just as intro scenes. Not trying to kill the scene in any way. Just increase it here in Joey, VT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqBz2dSX71w

[riverc0il]

I have been meaning to write up something on my site along the lines of this very topic. This is a good opportunity to flesh out the idea.

Essentially, I am seeing a little bit of hypocracy (perhaps from myself included) that folks enjoy seeing "westside" TRs and are decrying protectionism. But don't we all (for the most part) protect powder and tree stashes? Are those that are telling the protectionist crowd to get a life while they post TRs of formerly lesser known places also those that are "show don't tell"? Is not posting a picture of Burt Ravine with the Cog in the foreground showing?

One perspective is that the west side is a clearly visible location from many roads and locations. So anything shown in TRs is already exposed. Perhaps. But who knows how long it might have taken many of us first timers this year to figure it out on our own without the guidance of TRs. Pictures can tell a thousand words and often times reports are not as selective about their perspectives as one might think.

So where is the line between clearly visible and hidden? Where is the line between dropping enough hints that "those in the know" can see the conditions but those not in the know can not figure it how. "Muppet's" or "Friend of Ernie's" gets a laugh but showing a TR with the cog in perspective doesn't leave much to the imagination to any one.

So what about hidden tree shots and stashes and off piste and slack country? Why not be more public with selective details here? Or provide pictures with some additional perspective? Or name names of key locations or directions in the TR such that more people could find the stash?

Are we not protectionist when it comes to our lesser known areas that we care about solitude and untouched snow but not so much when it comes to other areas?

Those that have the ability, fortitude, knowledge, skills, tools, and perserverance might find fresh snow in a variety of places but those with less stamina and lower tolerance for avalanche danger might only get to some of those locations and only when conditions are perfect.

Is the secret stash a thing of the past? Does everyone find out eventually any ways? Should folks not identify a stash with the agenda that it will be theirs and their friends only for a certain period of time (especially indefinitely?)? Perhaps enough of a community is being established that we are all starting to share because the community is growing and so many more people know each other and are connected and part of networks of skiers and riders?

No answers here... just asking questions (at this point ;) ).

[bristlecone]

Good points, good questions from many.

I wouldn't expect (and wouldn't want) us to come up with a list of Things We Believe and then hang it on the dumpster for recitation before skinning up each day.

On one extreme is the named, mapped, fully photo-documented, GPS-tracked TR. On the other is the run that the skier keeps all to themselves, forever, so secretly that they themselves forget where they were. ;) In between there are all kinds of shades of gray and we each pick a shade of our own liking.

[RR]

Maintaining classic CCC trails is hard work and sometimes not "authorized". Maintaining some trails in closed ski areas is hard work and is almost never "authorized". Secrets? Hardly, there's a database for the latter and books and even movies about the former.

Other shades of "Not Authorized"? Those will probably be very secret, whether they are accessible from lifts or not. It's interesting about the abandoned "lines" that one finds in the woods, far from any lifts. Perhaps there was a matter of conscience or perhaps it was just a matter of greener pastures elsewhere.

Massive drainages with huge slide paths and some of the classic landslides are the inspiration of nearly every skier/rider who sees them, gleaming whitely against the green/grey of the forested mountains.

I've been to some of the latter simply because I'm curious and willing to put up with putting out a lot of effort just to catch a nice ride. The former are a bunch of effort, but it's a lot harder to get lost.

Then there are the slides involving a tent. Or, laser speed approaches I am no longer capable of.

Friends...the destinations select the willing and disallow the unwilling.

Will the cutter care? Yes the cutter always cares. Does the Slide or the Drainage care? Never! Do land stewards care? As soon as they think of a reason, they care.

We can die out there. Many never realize that in their bones but I say most in the backcountry do or soon will. When the stakes are higher, so too are feelings.

To what do we trust? Our feelings? A social compact? Just how does one logically argue in favor of risk anyway? What risk will we face for our pleasure?

[Skidmarks]

You don't need a GPS to figure this one out! What next Snow Trains?
These Guys were Showing and Telling way back when. With the Mt Washington Summit Cone in the background and a hint of the Cog, I'll bet they were in the Great Gulf. Was Winston Pote an early day FIS Bloger? These skiers may have been from Boston or maybe belonged to DOC, perhaps they were even locals. One thing is certain, they were sharing their experience using the media of the day. Their shared experiences provided inspiration for generations to come.

Today in 2010 we have amazing tools to help spread the word of BC skiing, Forums, Blogs and Videos. Will future generations be looking at images of Muppet Coloir and wonder what hell we were thinking? In my recent trail report Lone Moose Ravine 4/22/2010 (http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?p=141724#post141724) , I didn't want to rock the boat and piss anyone off. In that spirit I knuckled to the trend. Given my druthers, I'd rather add to the rich history of skiing on Mt Washington.
Let's do it for the Children!!
http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/515/MtClay.jpg

[boardman]

GREAT picture, Skidmarks!!!!

[icelanticskier]

that pic is great of the old timers skiing the clay fields. they could practice better bc skiing etiquette by skiing one at a time, they MUST be from vermont:p vermonters like to ski in groups together, hold hands, sing jolly songs.......:p:p

just kidding!

roro

[stoneman]

I dont think they're from Vt. The guy in the middle looks like he's trying to poke his pole through the lead skier's head, as in: "oh no you won't get first tracks"......seems more like NH action. And i cant say for sure, but the last guy could be RR.

[drewvw]

And i cant say for sure, but the last guy could be RR.

Haha!

[RR]

LOL!

Buzz cut...yup could'a been me...

... 'cept back then I wasn't even a gleam in my Dad's eyes

[RCL1]

Is not posting a picture of Burt Ravine with the Cog in the foreground showing?

So where is the line between clearly visible and hidden? Where is the line between dropping enough hints that "those in the know" can see the conditions but those not in the know can not figure it how. "Muppet's" or "Friend of Ernie's" gets a laugh but showing a TR with the cog in perspective doesn't leave much to the imagination to any one.

No answers here... just asking questions (at this point ;) ).

Note there were no obvious pics of the cog in the so-called "muppet" post. Just an oblique, ambiguous visual reference.

Anyone with their Secret Squirrel Decoder Ring would know that Muppet actually refers to that entire drainage of the Jim Henson Range. Duh.

-RL

[Skidmarks]

Note there were no obvious pics of the cog in the so-called "muppet" post. Just an oblique, ambiguous visual reference.

Anyone with their Secret Squirrel Decoder Ring would know that Muppet actually refers to that entire drainage of the Jim Henson Range. Duh.

-RL

I think that's what riverc0il is saying:
"Muppet's" or "Friend of Ernie's" gets a laugh but showing a TR with the cog in perspective doesn't leave much to the imagination to any one.

I read it as Steve comparing and contrasting two kinds of TRs. Don't want to put words in his mouth, I'm sure he'll clear up any questions

By the way those guys skiing Mt Clay look like they were at 44 17' 18.11" N 71 18' 48.26" W having a great time in the corn snow. I wonder if they hiked in from the Cog side or if it was Slackfest '40 ??

[Seeker]

Well, it's hard for me to think of anything that you can plainly see from the highway as secret. Or plainly see from a hiking trail for that matter. If I can see it, it's not secret! And any above treeline terrain or clearly visible slides are just not secret.

But there are plenty of glades that I've skied that I would never have known of or thought to explore if it weren't for someone showing them to me.

I think there is a big distinction here.

[RCL1]

If I can see it, it's not secret! And any above treeline terrain or clearly visible slides are just not secret.

I think there is a big distinction here.

Fair enough, but how many times have you been in GOS and snickered up your sleeve at the folks falling over each other one ravine north? That's all visible from the road..

The more we talk about this stuff the more folks will know about it.

My reason for posting here? Establish some cred' to make connections with folks to get out and ski the bc. Drew, Peter, Steve, Nate, RR, etc.. mission accomplished.

[drewvw]

My reason for posting here? Establish some cred' to make connections with folks to get out and ski the bc. Drew, Peter, Steve, Nate, RR, etc.. mission accomplished.

Exactly...this may come as a surprise to some people but:

1) Not everyone was born with innate knowledge of the eastern backcountry and skied straight out of the womb and into muppetville. Does that mean you should post stuff like "What is the cog and how do I ski all of the good stuff around there"? No but...(read on)

2) Some folks actually LIKE meeting new people and touring with them, showing them the ropes, and sharing new experiences as opposed to going with the same people over and over for 20 years and complaining about others like a xenophobe.


It seems reasonable that people should be able to come to this great site to learn, explore based on subtle hints, and make new friends.

If you disagree with that, then it says a lot more about YOU then a blog post ever would.


end rant :)

[Mad Skier]

Here's an interesting read. (http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9871)

[bristlecone]

Here's an interesting read. (http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9871)
Ha... it was a matter of time before that came up.

Here we are a few years on - even if we knew how the usage of that place has been changing, I don't think we could sort out the internet from other factors. And even the internet can't stop that place from being relatively a lot of work for not a lot of options.

The more we talk about this stuff the more folks will know about it. I think this is a key point. One TR with GPS tracks about that place makes an impact and can be googled. But the internet has a way of fading information over time... in contrast, seeing TR after TR about a place elevates it in a more significant way.

Whatever we think about whether or not we should be introducing or encouraging people to go to these areas, we can probably agree that talking up a place results in more people being more likely to go to that place.

Along these lines, I have to think that the influence of Goodman's book is fading. Books? That's for people who use phone books... and make telephone calls over wires.

Nice pic skimarks-

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/515/MtClay.jpgIt's disorienting looking at those old photos. On the one hand, it looks like presi corn fun in the spring sun, same as it ever was. On the other hand, it really was different. Long slow trip up from the cities, heavy challenging gear, stylish outfits, no helicopter rescues, no internet. Our BC experiences are really quite cushy.

BTW, I think those old-time skiers were more circumspect in their reporting than they may seem... they knew that at some point once the ski industry that they were growing from nothing became something bigger, when everyone would be wired together in some futuristic way and zipping up smooth highways at unimaginable speeds, that mountain would eventually be renamed to "Mt. Reagan," and the location would then only be clear to the real old-timers...

[T0DD]

I've only posted a few TR's but read all that are posted. The reason I only have posted a few TR's is because I do not have the chance to get up there that much.

I do enjoy reading the posts that the author is trying to disguise the venue. It goes to show that you really just need to get out there and explore and you'll find something to ski.

But, the TR's that do reveal where they are just as good. In my case, I just enjoy hearing about great skiing in our area. Because I don't have the snow knowledge, and because typically I ski solo, as much as I would love to go to places named I don't. Do reading them make me want to go, of course. But I don't.

I guess my point is that everyone that reads a TR is not going to ski that spot.

[Skidmarks]

You look at these guys and you see no packs, no shovels and no cares. I'm sure they either took the Train up or drove, can't say for sure. Maybe they left their packs at the top. We do have it a lot easier than they did but it's the same sense of adventure that brings us to these places.

Good call on the re-name of Mt Clay.
The namesake of the Mt now Mt Reagan (according to NH since 2003), was a huge advocate of freedom of speach and free trade. Let's follow in his tracks and share the wealth with others.

[chickwhorips]

Sounds like Goodman's newest edition will include a chapter on a easy-to-get-to Ravine in the Northern Presidentials. He just doesn't realize that we had an unusual snow year and that access is usually not very easy... You can definitely get yourself into trouble on something that you can see on the road, like Mount Rundle in Banff.

Here's my 2 cents...
I use T4T to get info on conditions and find ski partners. I will contribute when I think others can learn from my outings (either in a good way or a bad way!). But there are some outings that I won't post a TR about: either because I want to keep the location for me (and my friends) or because I believe that 99.5% of skiers who troll the internet should not be attempting some of the lines that I have skied.

BTW, I have a local friend who is upset that people are skiing in Huntington... He sees that as "our" spot. I smile to myself... :skifemcool:

[stoneman]

Regarding saint Ronnie, lots of dead people in central america and lots of Cubans would dissagree on both counts.... if they could.

[gpetrics]

BTW, I have a local friend who is upset that people are skiing in Huntington... He sees that as "our" spot. I smile to myself... :skifemcool:

OMG! you can ski HR?! WHAAAATTT?

Seriously though, I smile to myself too. But I also frown a little bit sometimes, because that statement contains a very telling sentiment, and one I've had expressed to me by a number of people I've met on MTW who realize that I'm the darn goofy-orange-hat-wearing-punk-from-FIS. So many people think that they showed me, or they told me about it, or they did it first and made it possible for me.

Honestly none of us at FIS had ever really even heard of--and were hardly EVER shown--skiing in HR, or in almost every other location we've been to for that matter. I guess because it was such a taboo subject to the locals who wanted it to be "theirs." (Full disclosure: I was shown the Ammo halfpipe by a friend who I'm sure has no qualms with me telling and showing.) So although we were sure nothing we were doing was a first descent, we had a lot of pride in our efforts because they sure felt like first descents to us since we scoped, planned, prepared and executed these trips without any help from anyone else. The way we found it was by seeing it from the road or wherever, and saying "hey that should be skied"... so whatever anyone else says, although I'm happy to listen and consider, doesn't necessarily affect my opinion on what I share/write/picture/say. I feel happy making my own decisions based on our actions.

It should be noted that the REAL credit for pioneering skiing in HR amongst the FIS is Sam/Allen. Those two were the ones who were really focusing on it first while I was poking my head elsewhere around the Presidentials.... I've just been drawn into the craze. I think the opinion I wrote above though would be fairly representative of what Sam and/or Allen would say on the matter as well.

[bristlecone]

BTW, I have a local friend who is upset that people are skiing in Huntington... He sees that as "our" spot. I smile to myself... :skifemcool:
Wow. I have my own position and respect a wide range of opinions on the matter, but to me that is really out there. Public land accessed by a wide hiking trail a stone's throw from a major trailhead with winter overnight accommodations. What was the beginning of the end - when the USFS started making daily avy forecasts for huntington?!?

Personally I think the FIS reports strike a great balance, while others would want more info, and still others would want less or none. Although, the floodgates of northeast day-trippers heading toward those named himalayan peaks have recently opened... ;)

[Dan9]

the wisest thing one could conclude is that both camps deserve respect, and understanding. if you can (try and) step into someone else's shoes, in your mind, and try and see it from their point of view, it helps an awful lot.

times are a-changin' and change has been said to be the only constant, however. I for one am glad to see more people intesrested in the outdoors and away from sitting around watching TV and being spoon-fed chemicals. Not to say that I don't like my TV and my chemicals it's just that, for me, the outdoors in general and mountains specifically are a really intense spiritual experience for me, a tiny dot in the universe, and a place where I really feel connected to said universe.

I guess I'm still a bit of a hippy. I'm ok with that.

As for blogs and TRs, they are the guidebooks of the present moment and technology. For me they can be inspirational, funny (esp FIS this winter!), good beta, and help me make route/destination ideas become reality. And the Internet has a bunch of tools on it that I also use, some at the very last minute before hitting the road (sorry not into crackberry in the car) that can help me make good decisions that (at least, I perceive to) increase my odds of 1) staying safe 2) having fun and 3) SCORING AWESOME TURNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok time to do some work. Carry on, ladies and gents.

[stoneman]

CWP: Does anyone actually even look at Goodman anymore when planning a trip into the presidentials?

We seem to be having this discusssion every year, and it doesn't take very long for someone to trott out Goodman as proof that information regarding the terrain in question is readily available and has been for many years. This is only true in the broadest sense. Outside of the usual suspects (Tucks, GOS, GG) Goodman really doesn't include a lot of information - at least in my edition. Pretty sure he doesn even mention the west side - except for Oaks. There is a huge difference between what's available in Goodman and what you can find in a lot of Trip reports here and on other sites. The web is so much more convenient, the information is so much better and more abundant that Goodman is pretty much irrelevant for anything other than rolling tours.

[Skidmarks]

It gave me a taste of what was available. Haven't skied Oakes yet but Goodman talks of access via Marshfield Station and Skiing Ammo on the way out. I would agree that more info is available on the internet but his book is a great start. The book also covers a lot of ground so I'm not sure how much more detail he can fit in.

Want to learn about skiing Huntington Ravine visit the Synnott Mt Guides (http://www.newhampshireclimbing.com/new-hampshire-climbing-guide.asp)site. Next season I'm going to hire Mike and check it out. Yale Gully looks very exciting.

One thing is for sure so much to ski, so little time.