Boarder survives large Loveland Pass avy

[boardman]

From over on the TGR site:

http://live.tetongravity.com/_Snowboarder-survives-large-avalanche-on-Loveland-Pass/BLOG/1618414/75233.html

BIG slide - neither of the two in the party involved had avy gear. Great pics at the link above.

You have to see the video interview of the guy - he had an "avalanche plan" and it "probably saved his life." You have got to be kidding me. No beacon, no probe, no shovel, no testing the snow, and from what I can tell, no avy training. The report leaves the impression that the guy did all the right things, even though it notes, basically as an afterthought, that he had no avy gear. Oh, but he's an "experienced" backcountry snowboarder. Uh-huh.

[Rider.Steve]

From over on the TGR site:

http://live.tetongravity.com/_Snowboarder-survives-large-avalanche-on-Loveland-Pass/BLOG/1618414/75233.html

BIG slide - neither of the two in the party involved had avy gear. Great pics at the link above.

You have to see the video interview of the guy - he had an "avalanche plan" and it "probably saved his life." You have got to be kidding me. No beacon, no probe, no shovel, no testing the snow, and from what I can tell, no avy training. The report leaves the impression that the guy did all the right things, even though it notes, basically as an afterthought, that he had no avy gear. Oh, but he's an "experienced" backcountry snowboarder. Uh-huh.

Lining up for the Darwin Awards - thanks for the post Les.

[bristlecone]

Can't see the vid at the moment, but maybe that's a good thing. This has set me off on my periodic rant about ski movies. They have a great chance to help to raise awareness of avalanche safety. Not only do they consistently blow that chance (rarely even a brief mention of terrain, snowpack, safety gear, travel strategies, etc.), they actually do the opposite - showing athletes riding through and out of avalanches, perpetuating the myth that you can just ride out of an avy if you are good enough skier/rider.

Maybe this has improved in the past few years since I have tuned out to most ski movies, but I suspect not.

[clg898]

Dumb newsfolk... called him an "experienced" backcountry snowboarder. An "experienced" backcountry snowboarder with no avy gear or avy sense is a dead backcountry snowboarder. Fortunately, they did report that he's hoping Santa brings him a beacon. Very lucky.

[icelanticskier]

once the avy deaths start piling up this season, folks will start clue-ing in a bit. it happens every year. and will continue to happen in increasing numbers. i have to believe that most avy deaths involve "experienced","well equiped", folks, as those are the folks spending more time in the bc. it just happens. some folks are lucky and others, not so much, whether they have experience and equipment or not.

rog

[clg898]

i have to believe that most avy deaths involve "experienced","well equiped", folks, as those are the folks spending more time in the bc. it just happens. some folks are lucky and others, not so much, whether they have experience and equipment or not.

rog

True, just based on the sheer amount of time "experienced" folks spend in the BC becoming experienced, but for a kid who is waiting for Santa to bring him a beacon and shovel to be described as "experienced..." he's either not very experienced or not very bright. He is very lucky.

[natron]

what the avy report was for that day? it's now high. If people are going to ski/ride high avy danger terrain, isn't it best to have avy gear.. glad he made it out and I'm sure he'll be more prepared in the bc in the future.

[icelanticskier]

If people are going to ski/ride high avy danger terrain, isn't it best to have avy gear.. glad he made it out and I'm sure he'll be more prepared in the bc in the future.

no, it's not best to have avy gear, it's best to avoid avy terrain altogether during considerable/high avy danger. more prepared next time? ya, to die maybe.

rog

[natron]

no, it's not best to have avy gear, it's best to avoid avy terrain altogether during considerable/high avy danger. more prepared next time? ya, to die maybe.

rog

I agree if there is considerable/high avy stay away.

[boardman]

Bottom line is, false sense of security or not (I recall reading somewhere that most avy deaths occur during Moderate rating periods), if you don't have AT LEAST a shovel and probe to dig each other out in the event of a slide, you're just flat-out gambling. I'd prefer not to gamble when it comes to my mortality - far better to do whatever one can to stack the odds more in one's favor. I always carry avy gear in the BC, and not ONCE have I thought to myself, "hmm, I don't have to worry too much about conditions, because I have avy gear with me." That's ridiculous. I think the "false security" argument is completely overstated.

[icelanticskier]

"hmm, I don't have to worry too much about conditions, because I have avy gear with me." That's ridiculous. I think the "false security" argument is completely overstated.

les, bull$hit. lots of folks that dig pits, ski the slope anyway regardless of what they find. same for those that are less experienced yet have "all of the gear" to keep them safe.

i do agree on the moderate rating statement. moderate scares me the most of all ratings.

rog

[boardman]

Rog, while you may be correct in that lots of people ski regardless of what they find, I think they would just as likely do so even without avy gear. I just don't see many people thinking they'll be fine because they have avy gear. I think what can contribute most to a false sense of security is group size -- the more people in the group, the more likely the tendency to think you'll be okay. Especially if a number of people in the group have already skied the slope. I just don't associate having avy gear (and if you have the gear, it's probably likely you had the training) with increased risk-taking.

[RR]

If one has the gear and the training I guess there's also a higher count of trips into "the Terrain at Risk".

Still, looking at all the stuff I can remember, loads of the deaths and close calls seem to be happening to the untrained who make fewer trips in their lifetimes.

Hubris sucks, for sure, but having the training seems to me that it is an indicator of a better safety rate. I gotta go with Les' statement on this one.

The "Gear betokens Safety" numbers are probably lower that Rog indicates, but humans have a way of messing up the facts when skiing/riding pleasure is up against obvious risk. So, while the numbers may be small, Rog is making a good point about a subset of BC travellers who do ignore the bleeding obvious, for whatever reason.

[surfsnowywaves]

I think that the kid shouldn't be wishing for a beacon for Christmas - he should be wishing for an avy course.

In my unscientific opinion, I'd say you have a better chance of surviving by using your brain rather than a shovel. If you somehow could gather statistics, I'd think that people who go out solo accompanied by their brain are ACTUALLY safer than people who go out in a group. I don't care if you're the Roy Rogers of beacon searching; I'd trust my own brain far more to save my ass than anyone else's shoveling ability.

(It's like a whole lot of other things in life - its easier to prevent than to cure ;))

[Spiny Norman]

Looking at the pics I'd say his best luck was that there wasn't "that much" snow. Tough for an lifelong easterner to judge but the cover looks thinnish, early season. ANd the crown doesn't look that big. Lucky MF'er.

[Rider.Steve]

Looking at the pics I'd say his best luck was that there wasn't "that much" snow. Tough for an lifelong easterner to judge but the cover looks thinnish, early season. ANd the crown doesn't look that big. Lucky MF'er.

Early season snowpack can be more dangerous due to greater temperature gradient in the snowpack - less snow, but potentially more likely to slide. AVI-1 101.

[yuckster]

Like this?

http://www.wildsnow.com/2287/turns-back-from-school/

(scroll to photo #3 - yikes!)

[riverc0il]

Dumb newsfolk... called him an "experienced" backcountry snowboarder. An "experienced" backcountry snowboarder with no avy gear or avy sense is a dead backcountry snowboarder. Fortunately, they did report that he's hoping Santa brings him a beacon. Very lucky.
There is a perpetual problem in our culture of referring to someones experience (the amount or length of time someone has done something) as knowledge (the know how and skills to do it in the best manner possible). Doing something a lot brings about its own benefits of knowledge and understanding. But that is not strictly "experience". The same problem happens in the world of employment. There are a lot of "experienced" people out there that suck at their jobs. But they get hired to new positions and get promotions because of "experience". You can have a lot of "bad" experience if you always do something in a problematic way.

Lou Dawson on WildSnow.com took issue with the media rather than the incident itself. I guess one of the Colorado papers took this "experience" argument and said the kid did everything he could to be safe. Not very investigative journalism.

[MrAlaska]

I would say that fortunate feller is infinetely more experienced today than he was the day before he ventured into avalanche territory with no preparation except his 'plan'. What is that old saying? Something about experience is what you have if you are still alive right after you needed it?

The "Dozen More Turns" film has probably made its rounds around here but for those who have not seen it I think it should be required viewing for anybody venturing outdoors. Nobody can argue the experience and knowledge level of this group, which may have been part of its weakness when you factor in the human element:

http://revver.com/video/310519/a-dozen-more-turns/

It is a pretty powerful case study of a group caught in an avalanche. Set aside a half hour; pipe it to the big screen and make your family watch it with you if they go outdoors. If they stay home and worry, do NOT let them watch.

[skimtwashington]

This film should run non-stop at Pinkham and more so up at Hojos during ski season...seeing this is more powerful than telling.(Maybe a covered kiosk w/monitor?)


And Avalanche is not the only deadly hazard. Slipping to your death or injury on frozen bulletproof or hard snow .... hitting an object is just as likelyor more so in the east here.

Remember the people cheering the multiple Avalanches in th bowl last spring(see Youtube)?

Ironically the person killed researched and studied avalanches. He pushed it" a dozen more turns" higher and it killed him...and ultimately took his friends leg too. The human factor of rationalization of risk is the biggest factor to overcome.