Skiing snow arches on Tucks - old pics

[Frankontour]

You should retake a look to the page of the trip of july 6, 2003 on FTO. The writer added few pics of ski on the Tucks' snow arches, back in mid-july 1994 and august 1996. The 1996 pics are enough special as the arch collapsed while a skier was on it. I'm not sure they skied on arches like that after that day !

Quite impressive (especially for august !)

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus/messages/2508/2605.html?1058322921

[Bannick]

It really amazes me sometimes just how reckless people can be. Hmmm snow arch in summer, people hiking around/under/near it....hey let's ski it. It is like people ducking ropes on closed trails or jumping over ropes that are marking off a huge boulder field only lightly covered by snow.

I guess the other question is was this august snow visible from the ravine cam (if it had been installed then)? It is looking pretty scarce up there.

B :snowboarding:

[M@]

Hi, my names M@, and I duck ropes.

I also ski above my ability for brief moments from time to time.

M@ :ducttape:

[elwood]

Bannick,

I know that sometimes risky behavior can be stupid, but at Smuggs (which is where I am a local-- the mountain I ski all the time) I would not hesitate to duck a rope to ski a trail that I know is safe. Not to mention the fact that I have friends who are ski patrol there, and I will usually ask about conditions first. But then again, I am usually out of bounds there anyway in non-patrolled areas (which is probably riskier than ducking a rope). To me, if there is no risk, there is no fun. However, endangering the lives of others is a total no-no. I would have passed on the snow arch, that looks way too dangerous to me...

[elwood]

I am a rope ducker too! Rope duckers unite!!!

[Bannick]

I duck ropes to get into the back country because those are merely indicating the edge of the ski area boundry. But I do not duck ropes on a closed run. It may be a bit different out here then back out west. They are often running winch cats on some of those closed runs. A winch cat line is something you do not want to hit. It is enough of a problem that Whistler makes mention to be aware of them when returning from a day in the backcountry after the mountain is "closed" on their avi reports.

Dont' get me wrong, I love the fun steep, treed stuff away from the masses too but if you duck a rope at Mt. Baker to snake into the canyon on a closed run you might find out the ice bridge colapsed and you will end up dead.

I agree...taking yourself out is one thing but taking out someone else is not so good. But if you get into trouble you could be putting your rescuer into trouble as well.

B :snowboarding:

[Lftgly]

I figured I ought to weigh in on this thread, since I'm one of the culprits. I think Bannick, you got the point of the NBS post, which was not (just) "bragging rights" about August & skiing the Snow Arch, but to make anyone reading the post aware that it is possible to ski it, but it's perhaps more dangerous than it might at first appear.

CD & I are now much more aware of the hazards of undermined snow, which exist throughout Tucks, or anywhere in the backcountry. The Snow Arch is, of course, a unique example. I hoped by sharing the story & photos to enlighten a few others.

Reckless? Sure. Stupid? Maybe. I'd venture a guess that 8 out of 10 visitors to this website would hesitate first, then ski over the same damn undermined snow, or the Snow Arch itself. If they read this (and see the pics at NBS), at least they'll think twice about it.

On NBS, Patrick correctly pointed out there has been at least one death related to the Snow Arch, back in the 1800's, chronicled well in "Not Without Hazard" (which we were well aware of).

There but for the grace of God go I....

The AV danger in Tucks ended months ago, followed by the falling ice hazard, crevasses, and undermined snow, followed by falling rock. I've seen a rock the size of an Escort station wagon come down the center headwall; believe me, the danger doesn't end when the last of the ice has come down. Bottom line, it's never "safe" to ski Tucks. As we push the summer ski season to the limit, be just as careful as you would early- or mid-season.

[DMC]

Hey if you try and ride a snow arch and it collapses and you get stuck... Maybe you could cut your arm off and become an instant celebrity!!
You'll be on TV and bands will give you charity concerts to cover your medical expenses.... ;)

[Frankontour]

Welcome here, Lftgly. It's almost a shame that you have only the rating of "Pinkham Notch Visitor". I would give you the "Toni Matt Club" right now ! Just the 100+ times skied at Tucks on your profile says all....

About the ducking ropes... I actually keep stats of the number of times I did that since 15 years. Only for the official trails, I passed over the 1000 and it's well above 5000 for the off-piste trails. I actually work on my technica to be able to pass without slowing down below a rope at less than 2 feets of the ground. Pretty good when you must do fast... (falling down on the behind part of your skis and as soon as you hit the skis, you bounce up)

But Quebec off-piste skiing is not like Mt Baker or Whistler, etc. Here, it means to ski right in the woods and there is rarely some big cliffs in our ski areas. Of course, there is places like the Ecureuil's Backcountry at Orford or the summit side's backcountry of Val Saint-Côme that are pretty cliffy although possible, but in general, the biggest dangers are the trees. Crevasses are rare too... except in the "Stairs" of Mt Alta (north of Montreal... not Utah).

In my opinion, if there is some snow, but there is a rope.... it means that there is something interesting that the ski patrol want to keep just for them :)

[DMC]

Ducking ropes.... hmmmm....
Not something that I encourage people to do..

Most of the time - if Ski Patrol closes a trail they have a damn good reason to do it..

A couple of years ago at Hunter Mtn(new York State) they closed off Anna Purna due to solid ice conditions.. It's a long, narrow bump run..
A man and a woman ducked the rope and the woman fell and slid 3/4s of the way down and ended up in the trees - she died... It was horrible... She was really mangled..

The exception is POWDER days... If it's snowing and I know the terrain - I'm all about ducking ropes...

[Frankontour]

I partially agree with you, DMC. In fact, it's just when it's real bad conditions everywhere that I think you may not duck a rope, if you know the terrain. As soon as you know it and are able to ski it in any conditions anyway, there is no problem. I already took some runs more icy than an ice rink and did them a dozen of times in a day. In the other sense, I rarely take a closed trail that I don't know... but there is still many trails that I only took closed or almost only took closed. Just like the famous Écureuil of Mt Orford. I did it few dozen of times and I wasn't at the mountain the only 2 days it was open in the history of the trail. I must admit that this one is quite too much dangerous anyway to be a trail, cause if you exit the main line... oh boy !! (even the main line is completely crazy in some places). There is also the Porc-Épic, same mountain, which is almost never open just because a little almost flat rocky spot of 30' long that just doesn't hold the snow. 30' long on a 1 mile long glade... what a joke !

[Skilasnow]

I concur on the "Don't Duck if patrol has closed a trail or if you have never seen the trail"

There is a big difference though between the patrol closing a trail because of treacherous conditions and the rope at the area boundary, out of bounds is free freshies, but I wouldn't go alone. Also MRG has two tree areas roped off to regenerate the forest for future better tree skiing and I hate when I see tracks through there.

[Frankontour]

I guess the ropes are less popular in New England than in Quebec. Here, there is no ropes for the boundary lines, but in some ski areas, as soon as there is a tiny rock in one trail, they rope.

Personnaly, a rope mean : be cautious. May be I'm still too much innocent (despite may be not so much if I already know I am) to figure out the danger... but going in the woods, alone, without cell phone or FRS, when nobody knows I'm there... and during night skiing... is my kind of trip since 15 years.

The ropes are there to be sure that no beginner skiers/riders will be taken in the trail with really bad conditions. 95% of the times (excluding super early/late season) that a trail is roped, it's possible to ski and have fun for the expert/extreme skiers.

My skis worth a good 2$ anyway (only for a ski museum), so I don't care at all of scratching them on a few little rocks.

[TheOctopus]

Frankontour:
Personnaly, a rope mean : be cautious. Amen to that, and amen to not ducking ropes when you're not familiar with what's underneath. It helps tremendously to hike a ski area during the summer or fall and see what's actually under the trails. MRG (moss, grass, last fall's leaves) for the most part looks *very* different from Sugarloaf (boulders).

It also helps to be familiar with how an area uses ropes and wands -- just like the difficulty designations, they mean different things at different ski areas. Ducking a roped-off trail at MRG is generally pretty foolish. OTOH, roped stuff at S'Bush, Stowe, or Mt. Sneaux tends to get one to primo goods.... Skiing beyond the "Warning, Cliff Area" signs at Solitude is a perfectly reasonable thing to do; doing the same thing at Alta will get you killed.

My last $.08 here is on others' rope-ducking behavior. I have seen *so* many people duck ropes just to get to pure crap -- glare ice, firm bumps, or a recently groomed blue-square trail. Why? Pow pow pow is the only reason in my book to poach. Although I guess it keeps those folks away from the real off-piste goodies....

[Frankontour]

I agree with the hike to see the terrain under the snow. One of my good backcountry trip this year was the backside of la Réserve and I would have got some big surprises if I didn't hike the Stéphane Rochon's trail during summer before to ski it in winter.

I can say actually that I did some good runs on 90+% of the closed trails I skied in the last years. But even with that, I'm really not the kind to ski the lip closed in may in Tucks ;) Tucks is a place that ask respect and I would give it a perfect respect.

There is a great story from last year when a guy skied the lip closed and caused an avalanche on mid-may. No hurts, but many ones were scared of that big slide.

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus/messages/2508/1653.html?1023886326