Do you use an ice ax?

[luvinjaycloud]

i climbed left gully last year with my ski boots and skis slung over my back on a pretty warm late spring day....corn snow. i was thinking about carrying an ice ax this year. while it wasn't treacherous without, i think the added tool could make the climb easier/safer. saw someone in crampons which looked ideal but i'm not sure i want to go to that length. recommendations? what gear do you use to make you feel comfortable on those climbs?

[NtrentT]

Welcome.

When I started going to Tux in 03 I had all alpine gear and was a total "green horn" when it came to BC.

Booting up steeps in firm conditions with naked boots and poles in hands makes for a scary experience; I've done plenty of that in the past.

For the past 3 seasons I've been using crampons and an ice axe and keep my poles and skis in my pack; typically A-frame.

Read up on self arrest, and do some practice before you start using crampons, and remember to never use crampons without using an ice axe.

Why?... if you fall you will not have any means to self arrest, and your feet may catch the snow sending you into a tumbling fall, and potentially breaking your legs. It happened this year when a woman fell at the top of left gully, I believe she dropped her axe but the end result was the same.

Climbing with pons, and axe takes the edge off in terms of traction, but you need to stay focused and when you get tired rest a little, and don't get sloppy.

I have a pair of Black Diamond Sabertooth's for pons, and a Black Diamond Raven for an Axe.

I have an older axe for sale if your interested, though its quite heavy.

[yuckster]

i climbed left gully last year with my ski boots and skis slung over my back on a pretty warm late spring day....corn snow. i was thinking about carrying an ice ax this year. while it wasn't treacherous without, i think the added tool could make the climb easier/safer. saw someone in crampons which looked ideal but i'm not sure i want to go to that length. recommendations? what gear do you use to make you feel comfortable on those climbs?

It is certainly a big confidence booster. If the snow is deep enough, you can bury the ice axe shaft up to the pick, and this creates a bombproof handhold.

[icelanticskier]

ice axe? no. crampons? sometimes. helmet? no. why? well, if i feel the need to put on the pointy things, then conditions must be pretty darn burly where paying the fullest attention is key. if i put myself into that situation, then falling is just not an option, so self arrest is not an option either. a helmet to me is just another thing that adds to over-confidence in steep, high, exposed places. just not into it, never have and never will. with well over 300 mt washington ski days as well as hundreds of days living/skiing out west, i like my minimalist setup just fine and always er to the side of just paying attention and being solid and focussed. i did use my cramps last week, mostly to protect my boot soles from a long ridge walk. :D

pay attention, make sure every step is a solid one, and stay out of the way of others on the way up or down.

get me on that plane!!!

rog

[RR]

Mostly I don't use crampons or an axe but I still go skiing when it's firm...usually because I schedule my trips according to family and work and, well, weather happens.

We used crampons and axes in King Ravine on Saturday. I too, use Sabertooths (because they fit all of my boots - to my knowledge they don't fit snowboard boots, folks needing info about that will want to ask other snowboarders for their info) and the Raven axe. They reduced the energy cost of the steep ascent on the Firm and trust me, focus was key to good skiing as well as part of the safety package. No such gear was needed on Sunday in the Gulf of Slides on the Soft.

I cannot praise this video enough...check it out! Safety Adviser Roger Wild of the Mountaineering Council of Scotland
demonstrates (http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/safety/winter-essentials-video.html) key elements.

Then again, I came at my axe and pons via climbing and took some truly demented self arrest practice. Back in the 1990's my climbing partner Donald and I skied in to North Slide of Tripyramid with 300 feet of 7mm double dry and took turns free glissading for 400-450 feet and then trying to self arrest before the cord stopped us. We did several laps and got to the point of taking 500+ footers before begining to arrest and still getting stopped before the cord did it for us.

Insane? Not sure. Scary? Only at first. Fun? Well, we had been practicing the amazingly tricky task of keeping boots up for months prior, so it was about like breathing by the time we finished our last "runs". In the sense that breathing can be fun, we enjoyed it.

[JayPowHound]

I'm planning on bringing an axe and crampons to the mountain this week (tomorrow night thru Friday) for the first time, and I've been trying to decide what to do for a boot setup. I DON"T have AT boots, and have typically hiked (then skied...) in my Alpine boots when up in the Ravine. My boots are quite tight, and far from ideal for hiking in but I make them work.

Bringing crampons for the first time this week I am trying to decide if I should just use them on my uncomfortable alpine ski boots, or if I should bring my Koflach Ice Boots for the up's, and carry up my Alpine boots for the downs. I don't mind the extra weight so much when hiking, but I'm not sure I want the weight of the climbing boots on my back as I ski down.

I'm thinking of summiting one day while I'm there, so the Koflach boots would certainly be nicer for the longer hike. What do you think? Does anyone hike in a different boot than they ski in? (not counting the TRT, of course... although I HAVE seen people hiking that in Alpine boots on occasion. :doh:)

[The Lisa]

I come to BC skiing from a hiking and beginner mountaineering background so if conditions are steep and firm I am wearing crampons and if I am wearing crampons then I am carrying an ice axe. That's just my comfort level and I would rather carry stuff and not need it than not carry it and really need it. Plus Tuckermans in spring the best place to practise self-arrest technique. Nothing like throwing yourself head first and upside down down a slope with an obstacle-free runout :D

I used to think my Koflach double boots were the clunkiest things EVER until I took up skiing and hiked around in AT boots. However, my AT boots are comfy enough to hike all day in so I do not bother with hiking up in a pair of regular boots then switching to my AT boots. You could consider hiking up the TRT in regular trail shoes/boots, then switching to your ski boots and crampons once you reach the Bowl. The shoes will not add significant weight to your pack when skiing down.

[Fanatic1]

I hiked the whole TRT to HoJo's in my AT boots when I thought I would have a chance to skin part of it at least. (and I guess I could have the last couple of hundred yards, but didn't bother) Having done that, next time it's that late I will wear trail running/light hiking shoes to HoJo's and switch to the AT boots there. You can leave stuff stashed there near the shelter while you go high and not have to worry about the extra weight while skiing. Makes the exit hike a whole lot more tollerable esp when you are fatigued.

[winters2short]

I bring an axe, crampons, and helmet. Last Weds. I used the axe, but did not take my crampons or helmet out of my pack. Others were struggling without either. It's your choice. But as one snowboarded was wallowing and shearing out, he exclaimed to me "wish I would have brought my axe, left it in the car", as I passed him with my axe firmly plunging into the corn snow. It is also worth considering that in Tux you are also to be aware of all the others who are unfamiliar with properly and safely travelling in the BC. I am less worried about myself falling, as I am of someone else pitching into me and taking me out with them. Or knocking something down on me from above. The confidence and focus from using the appropriate equipment makes the travel much more enjoyable. Be prepared and make the right choices for the time.

[bristlecone]

Read up on self arrest, and do some practice before you start using crampons, and remember to never use crampons without using an ice axe.

Why?... if you fall you will not have any means to self arrest, and your feet may catch the snow sending you into a tumbling fall, and potentially breaking your legs. It happened this year when a woman fell at the top of left gully, I believe she dropped her axe but the end result was the same.

Ditto. Never crampons alone, so if you are getting one thing, get the ice axe. That vid RR posted shows how to use it very well. There are many options for tethering (http://www.climber.org/gear/IceAxeStraps.html) the axe, or not, pluses and minuses, worth reading up on.

When you practice self-arrest (of course with a safe run-out) take the crampons off - snagging the points is unlikely to be trivial.

I almost always have my helmet on in steep terrain, climbing or descending - a sliding fall could happen either way. Plus the elements I don't have much control over - falling ice and rock, falling climbers or skiers, falling equipment.

Of course, none of the equipment should make you feel invincible. Focus and awareness are always critical.

[luvinjaycloud]

thanks, great feedback from this group. I'm going to make the axe a standard tool and consider the crampons. i expect to play it safe and avoid icy/dangerous conditions.

[M V Skier]

This may be a silly question, but I'd love to hear how people affix the axe to the pack for skiing. I'm thinking that this may be less than optimal, and in hindsight it looks kind of scary:
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu232/whanschka/Tuckerman%20Trips%203-09/IMG_0090.jpg

[pleblanc]

That's because it IS a scary way to carry your axe. Have your axehead down whether it's mounted to the side or back of your pack. As for this thread, I also sometimes go with ''pons and axe. Have G-10 Grivels, which have straps and can fit my AT boots, alpine boots, Koflach mountaineering boots, or general hiking boots. Like the versatility, but if were to buy again, would prolly go for a clip-on 'pon. Gee, I wish I were at the Rockpile now!!! Paul

[RR]

This may be a silly question, but I'd love to hear how people affix the axe to the pack for skiing. I'm thinking that this may be less than optimal, and in hindsight it looks kind of scary:
[IMG...an image I shudder to recall.../IMG]There is only one reasonable way to carry an axe with the head end up and that is with the shaft traped between the pack and climber's back with the axe head above the packstraps. It's very old school, but reasonably comfortable with a light rucksack.

Packs are designed to carry axes far more safely.

BTW, the depicted axe appears to be 25-30% too long for the person in the picture.

[M V Skier]

[IMG...an image I shudder to recall.../IMG]

Thanks for the advice and I am duly chastised...I will come up with a better scheme next time.

[RR]

Don't be too hard on yourself...check this out. http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_IceAxe.htm

I don't always agree with the Council about axe length when it comes to the steep snow climbs of Tuckerman Ravine. Mostly because of the need for safer skiing or boarding on the way down. If you were just walking or glissadeing on the way down, sure, classic length is better and safer.

There are axe loops on most packs designed for mountain hiking and skiing, etc. Using them is counter-intuitive...at first.

Typically the loop(s) is(are) sewn onto the panel of the pack farthest from the person carrying the pack. To stow an axe: With the pack upright, put the shaft down into the loop, spike first, so that the axe head is stopped by the loop. The spike at the end of the shaft is now dangling below the pack. Then, keeping the axe head in contact with the loop, flip the shaft up so that it rests against the pack panel, with the spike pointed up.

Technical packs will have a well located velcro or elastic capture system to hold the shaft against the pack. Some packs have slots for installing some webbing for the same purpose...I use old cycling toe straps on such packs, very handy for more than just axes.

A final coinsideration: The pick! Yes, I usually do use pick and adze guards when the axe is attached to my pack.

Most of my packs have two loops. I keep the pick pointed to the middle of the pack instead of pointed towards the people (trees, bushes) next to me. If it is a center loop don't sweat over which way.

[glibbidy]

Being a snowboarder using soft boots I have found using an ice axe to be very helpful in making the climb. IMHO it has become an indispensable for my trips to Tucks. As others have mentioned, make sure it's sized up properly for your needs.

[andyzee]

I cannot praise this video enough...check it out! Safety Adviser Roger Wild of the Mountaineering Council of Scotland
demonstrates (http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/safety/winter-essentials-video.html) key elements.


Great video, I watched that when I first purchased an ax. And I wouldn't go to Tux without it, very helpful in getting up the steeps.

[mtd2007]

I cannot praise this video enough...check it out! Safety Adviser Roger Wild of the Mountaineering Council of Scotland
demonstrates (http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/safety/winter-essentials-video.html) key elements.


video, thanks for sharing that -

[willyo617]

Ice axe in uphill hand (plunging), whippet in other hand, I'll wear crampons going say up the tux trail between hojo's and the floor of the bowl but I prefer my bare (AT - so they have a burly vibram sole) boots when actually ascending pitches where i feel the ice axe necessary if the snow is soft enough or there is an established boot pack - as others have said - an inability to self arrest while wearing crampons = broken leg.

[chickwhorips]

As a compromise, I usually have this with me...
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t229/joarch/GivelCondor.jpg

A Grivel Condor on top of my ski pole. I "deploy" it when I have to climb up frozen ski runs, and when I ski down "no-fall" runs. I can vouch for it's self-arrest capability too.