3/14/2009 Two hikers hurt sliding on ice in NH ravines

[jumpturn]

Two hikers hurt sliding on ice in NH ravines (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Two+hikers+hurt+sliding+on+i ce+in+NH+ravines&articleId=d63244a6-de75-4020-8f93-36d55d95226a)

By SHAWNE K. WICKHAM

New Hampshire Sunday News Staff

Two hikers suffered broken legs in separate falls in Tuckerman and
Huntington ravines yesterday.

Chris Joosen, a snow ranger with the U.S. Forest Service, said in both
cases the hikers slipped on the icy, hard-packed snow and slid
hundreds of feet down steep slopes. Joosen said yesterday happened to
be the annual refresher course for Mount Washington Ski Patrol
volunteers, so trained rescuers were in the vicinity when the first
report of an injured hiker came around 12:30 p.m.

The woman hiker fell at the top of Left Gully in Tuckerman Ravine,
Joosen said, and slid approximately 1,000 feet to the floor of the
ravine. He said at some point as she was sliding, her crampon
apparently grabbed the snow and she suffered a "boot-top, open leg
fracture."

The woman, who also had an arm injury, was brought down to Hermit Lake
in a rope litter, and taken by ambulance to Memorial Hospital.

About a half-hour after that rescue began, the group got word of a
second fallen hiker, Joosen said. The man was descending Huntington
Ravine near Central Gully and fell down through the area known as "The
Fan."

"The hard, icy conditions aren't very forgiving, so once you start
sliding, you won't stop until you hit something or end up on the
flats," Joosen said. He said the man was initially unconscious and had
blood on his face and a broken femur.

When rangers and members of the ski patrol arrived, he regained
consciousness but was in a great deal of pain, Joosen said. Joosen
said one of the ski patrol volunteers, physician Dr. Jim Lovett,
tended to the man's broken leg, and the patient was taken out by
Snowcat to a waiting ambulance. He also was taken to Memorial
Hospital.

Joosen said the identities and conditions of the two hikers were not
immediately available.

After a quiet winter, yesterday felt like the beginning of the spring
skiing season, Joosen said. "It's a different crowd that starts to
come up," he said, adding he hopes the two serious injuries do not
amount to "an omen" of things to come. Joosen advised hikers and
skiers to check tuckerman.org for weather and condition reports before
setting out. Yesterday's report warned: "The main safety concern today
is the potential for long sliding falls due to the hard icy snow
conditions."

[skituxnoob]

may they recover quickly!

shouldn't of held that refresher course though, if anything THAT was a bad omen of things to come. Good to know we have the best of the best up there.

[bradfordski]

I guess this answers my question about what the conditions have been like... hopefully it will soften up by my trip up on tuesday.
Hopefully those two recover quickly and are back at it asap.

[skimtwashington]

The poor woman and guy. The excruciating pain.

Imagine the terror just sliding Mach 3 down from the top of Left Gully for the woman is bad enough...but then your leg bone snaps completely and 'folds' ....and the ride with terror and agonizing pain continues.....Just horrifying! I've been in agonizing pain up there(dislocation). But I wouldn't want to be that poor woman.

It's so surreal when a beautiful and fun day turns into something a bit hellish.

Anyone out there ever been injured, littered out on Mt Wash. or in other backcountry? Does it change your thinking, choices or tactics? It did mine a little.

Hope those folks recover completely.

[The Lisa]

I was sick when I read about the two incidents. Thankfully both were swiftly rescued and hospitalized by the experts. Reading about these incidents reminds me to be extra cautious in situations where exposure, the fall line, steep ice, having gear in good condition, having mindset in good condition, affect safe travel.

Apart from the potential injuries, I would really hate to cause others to have to risk their safety to rescue me because of an error on my part.

[DMC]

Did she have an ice ax with those cramps?

[P-HUG]

Did she have an ice ax with those cramps?

my 1st thought exactly....repped

He said at some point as she was sliding, her crampon
apparently grabbed the snow and she suffered a "boot-top, open leg
fracture."

Sounds awful

[icelanticskier]

that time of year again:eek::rolleyes:
i'm missing the higher danger soft mid winter no crowds skiing already.
till next year
rog

[surfsnowywaves]

Gah...I was talking with a guy earlier in the winter about my possible thoughts on doing Mt Washington Ski Patrol at some point in the near future (you know, like a 10-year plan or something). He mentioned he'd done it in the past, and it weren't much fun - patrolling at a ski resort, you get a lot of little stuff, and not so much gory trauma. When he was working in Tux, he mentioned that the twisted ankles and such usually walked themselves out. When there was an accident to respond to, it was HUGE. Open leg fractures aren't exactly my forte. Talk about a serious case of :skierpetrified::skierpetrified:. Here's a :beer::beer::beer: to the fine souls who promptly responded.

[BladeGirl]

Did she have an ice ax with those cramps?

I was wondering that too and thought maybe she did, given the arm injury. Dang reporters don't give us the info we need!

[Seeker]

RS had the same question last night when I read the report to him. All you T4Ter's think alike or something!

[PwdrHound]

Did she have an ice ax with those cramps?

I was on Mt. Washington all weekend (TR's are coming..). Saturday, it was pretty gnarly. Pretty much, if you didn't land on your Axe you had almost no chance of self-arresting.....I stayed low. Skinned up late, with a full sled, took a run on the Sherby. Climbed Odell's on Sunday (http://www.divshare.com/download/6828510-58f)....yet again, I was climbing in Huntington when I should have been skiing in Huntington but, it was worth it!

We saw the women in the litter on the way down TUX around 2 PM...she was being hauled by snow mobile...hopefully she was sedated at that point!

After arriving at HoJo's we saw the new Snow Cat arrive for the other injured hiker.

The report is gut-wrenching.....I can only imagine what those falls were like!!! Just terribly violent. I think the adrenaline would make my heart explode! Terrible! Thankfully, they both survive, life forever changed, I'm sure!

We are so lucky to have a somewhat managed Backcountry area like Tux!!! The word of the falls had me thinking during my run down the Sherburne, "Why do people spend so much time and money to keep a place like Tux so accessible and relatively safe?" Really, it's a fair question, volunteers and tax-payers, alike, keep that place going but, it isn't necessary, really!

It all comes down to the simple fact that those volunteers, snow rangers, forecasters, caretakers and everyone involved with life on Mt. Washington believe it is important, enjoy it just as much as the next guy, and want to preserve and share it with everyone who is aware of such treasures.

For that, we are all so lucky and should be thankful! Honestly, I don't know how they do it...I don't think I could deal with the myriad of people that make the trek...especially once the spring comes around. The people who have worked and patrolled on Mt. Washington over the years are damn near saints as far as I'm concerned!

[boardman]

Today's avy report notes two skiers injured recently as well. Accident reports to be posted later in the week.

[Harkin Banks]

may they recover quickly!

shouldn't HAVE held that refresher course though, if anything THAT was a bad omen of things to come. Good to know we have the best of the best up there.

I'd rather think that it wasn't so much of a bad omen of what's to come, rather, it was just the good fortune (of sorts) that those two unfortunate souls had that much more help immediately available.

[RR]

On a recent trip an older skier kept up with the fitter skiers to the extent that after a long 2300' approach plus a couple thousand descent vert in two runs, his fatigue was apparent.

Energy and competence are related inversely for most people. As the tank runs dry ability to respond to stresses suffers both physically and mentaly. Here's what I saw. I have been thinking it over and wondering what I could have done to make it a safer experience.


early signs:
dropping of items right before and just after the first 1000 of play vert was recouped and another drop-in was planned. there were 4 dropped items while in the play area.

middle of the "play" session:
darkened flushed face with some sign of running a bit dry with no obvious urinations. more dropping items

end of play sessions:
a simple fall after modest exertion followed by no attempt to rise for a full minute. arrival at final top out culminated in fumbling with pack contents and more lost items accompanyied by centralized attention and delayed response to communication.

Beginning of exit on slick terrain:
short efforts followed by shaky stops and swaying. failure to edge skis temporarily solved by apparent adrenaline surge after some out of control skittering and a fall...no long slide due to scrub trees assisting. within 6 minutes the lack of edging was back along with poor timing and route selection, resulting in falls and eventual removal of skis to regain a lost traverse.

The worst of it:
challenging but unobstructed terrain brought on an attempt to walk down with crampons. A fall did happen but the nearest teammate stopped the fall before the inevitable snagging crampon injury could hapen. once on mellower terrain the skis were back on and falls were fewer but the pauses while down were longer. Assistance required to rise from a soft landing fall.

This sounds like a private hell to me and as the self-appointed caboose of the group I began to feel the guy's pain...or rather, I noticed when it no longer seemed to matter or hurt. That scared the crap out of me.

Surely you who have been reading have been thinking, Christ! Why didn't Rob do something?

Damned fine question. I should have said something when after we gained the first 2300 feet on a very firm approach and was told that name was a stem skier. On the way up I was hearing quite a few years worth of accumulated stories about famous powder skiing resort from name.

Hearing Stem and those stories should have sent my Spidey Sense into greater alarm than it did....fortunately I did put two and two together and made a mental note to watch out. I should have said something to the gent's friend who happened to be the nominal group leader. One bad for me

But this leads me to another note. Well matched companions? Not so much. My ride up was an unknown when we met, but on the way up I learned enough to know that he was both fitter and more skilled than me. I am usually the oldest on these bc tours...but not this time. The one year older gent was looking pretty lean and I figured that doing well must see him with plenty of fitness time. Early on it looked like I might be the anchor so I was pretty busy pressing it myself. The when we transitioned to crampon ascent I began to find my legs and my old accustomed pace, whereupon I began to uncork it a bit and lead for the long steep haul. So I missed some time to evaluate name...either dragging tail early or off on a romp when it got steep. Another bad, that is I failed to make enough of a priority of knowing my teammates capabilities

I could go on like I was reviewing for "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" but I won't. I will just say I had increasingly frequent reasons to just say something like " Hey name, why don't we old guys just take a half lap while the kids go for it, we are just holding them up?"

Yes, I know, I don't have to watch out for every body and, what's more this was a temporal ordeal and thankfully there were no self-rescue or rescue consequenses for our trip going as it did.

Sorry to bother, but the falling hikers in the OP were fatigued and it just brought all this fresh radiocination right back to my mind.

Any thoughts.

[mtd2007]

first off great analysis, was in a similar, non ski related situation on LaFayette in early winter where the people in question (not known to us) went on and got in trouble, they continued on late in the day to summit from GL, lost the the trail, dipped back below treeline and hunkered down for the night without proper gear, got rescued that next day. We saw them at GL late in the day and should have said something when they said they were continuing to the top. Tragedy averted but still think about it a lot and the potential consequences. Part of me says everything is a personal choice, but what if the individual does not appear to have the knowledge to make the proper decision, or is too fatigued to do so? It's a tough one, next time I'm saying something, your post made me think about it all over again.....

anyway, nice tr's btw, always enjoy them -

[icelanticskier]

hey, some folks know their limits and when to holdem and some don't. we're all adults and should be able to take care of ourselves, or, know when to take a break, or ask questions of plans, times, distances. i don't care who i'm with and even though it's not my responsibility for other adults but, i always ask how everyones doing and or feeling throughout a tour. i'm not trying to put down what happened in yer tour, i'm sure it was tough to see that guy get all lethargic and wobbly. glad he got down safely. communication. just my.02
lookin forward to a long walk tomorrow.
rog

[RR]

... communication. just my.02
lookin forward to a long walk tomorrow.
rogworth a full nickle imo. That was the crux, a group dynamic not matured to full functioning.

Thanks and have a great time playing with all the snow fleas tomorrow:D
SNOW Fleas..Yup, springtails! A BobT photo:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/ironwheel/Oakes-15-Mar-09/IMG_5323.jpg

[RR]

.. It's a tough one, next time I'm saying something, your post made me think about it all over again.....

anyway, nice tr's btw, always enjoy them -It's extra hard when communication isn't the core of the groups' preparedness. The nominal leader and yours truly each do a lot of solo tours; group thinking is not a practiced art...

It's way easier to speak to yourself for yourself or to speak clearly when it's just you and your tour partner to talk stuff over. Sh!t, I should have done that NOLS when I had the chance years ago!

[icelanticskier]

worth a full nickle imo. That was the crux, a group dynamic not matured to full functioning.

Thanks and have a great time playing with all the snow fleas tomorrow:D

cool. ya, gonna be busy back there me thinks. may have to get crafty and slide into some real esoteric spaces up there.
gonna have trouble sleeping tonight. anticipation and heaping amounts of extra energy just festering in my person. austin, you bettah eat yer wheaties. awe, it'll be fun!:D
rog

[surf88]

Not to take anything away from the work the rangers, and patrollers do up there, but if they werent there many of these people who get themselves into trouble wouldnt be there either. It is what it is, thats why I like GoS better.

[The Lisa]

Surely you who have been reading have been thinking, Christ! Why didn't Rob do something?


I was not thinking that at all, I swear :)

It is sobering food for thought though. When a group of people gets together for a trip and some are strangers to each other, there is the assumption that everyone is a responsible adult and knows their abilities, limits, etc. especially when heading out BC skiing of all things.

You were observant enough to see the escalating problems. It is hard to suggest to a complete stranger they take it easy or ask if they are doing ok lest they feel insulted and get indignant. I have had to overcome that worry a couple of times but at least in the capacity as an 'official' hike leader. I had the authority and responsibility to make sure everyone was handling the pace and the conditions, and to take measures to cut the hike short or have someone escorted back to their car if they were having a bad day.

However, in a leaderless group situation ideally everyone should be looking out for each other. In this case seems you were the self-appointed caretaker as well as caboose.

Although he had a rough day at least he and the rest of you finished without traumatic results and hopefully he learned not to over do it, to rehydrate and fuel himself better in future.

It goes both ways - everyone should take care of themselves so no one becomes a hazard for the group, and everyone should watch out for each other.

[altadude]

On a recent trip an older skier kept up with the fitter skiers to the extent that after a long 2300' approach plus a couple thousand descent vert in two runs, his fatigue was apparent.

Energy and competence are related inversely for most people. As the tank runs dry ability to respond to stresses suffers both physically and mentaly. Here's what I saw. I have been thinking it over and wondering what I could have done to make it a safer experience.


early signs:
dropping of items right before and just after the first 1000 of play vert was recouped and another drop-in was planned. there were 4 dropped items while in the play area.

middle of the "play" session:
darkened flushed face with some sign of running a bit dry with no obvious urinations. more dropping items

end of play sessions:
a simple fall after modest exertion followed by no attempt to rise for a full minute. arrival at final top out culminated in fumbling with pack contents and more lost items accompanyied by centralized attention and delayed response to communication.

Beginning of exit on slick terrain:
short efforts followed by shaky stops and swaying. failure to edge skis temporarily solved by apparent adrenaline surge after some out of control skittering and a fall...no long slide due to scrub trees assisting. within 6 minutes the lack of edging was back along with poor timing and route selection, resulting in falls and eventual removal of skis to regain a lost traverse.

The worst of it:
challenging but unobstructed terrain brought on an attempt to walk down with crampons. A fall did happen but the nearest teammate stopped the fall before the inevitable snagging crampon injury could hapen. once on mellower terrain the skis were back on and falls were fewer but the pauses while down were longer. Assistance required to rise from a soft landing fall.

This sounds like a private hell to me and as the self-appointed caboose of the group I began to feel the guy's pain...or rather, I noticed when it no longer seemed to matter or hurt. That scared the crap out of me.

Surely you who have been reading have been thinking, Christ! Why didn't Rob do something?

Damned fine question. I should have said something when after we gained the first 2300 feet on a very firm approach and was told that name was a stem skier. On the way up I was hearing quite a few years worth of accumulated stories about famous powder skiing resort from name.

Hearing Stem and those stories should have sent my Spidey Sense into greater alarm than it did....fortunately I did put two and two together and made a mental note to watch out. I should have said something to the gent's friend who happened to be the nominal group leader. One bad for me

But this leads me to another note. Well matched companions? Not so much. My ride up was an unknown when we met, but on the way up I learned enough to know that he was both fitter and more skilled than me. I am usually the oldest on these bc tours...but not this time. The one year older gent was looking pretty lean and I figured that doing well must see him with plenty of fitness time. Early on it looked like I might be the anchor so I was pretty busy pressing it myself. The when we transitioned to crampon ascent I began to find my legs and my old accustomed pace, whereupon I began to uncork it a bit and lead for the long steep haul. So I missed some time to evaluate name...either dragging tail early or off on a romp when it got steep. Another bad, that is I failed to make enough of a priority of knowing my teammates capabilities

I could go on like I was reviewing for "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" but I won't. I will just say I had increasingly frequent reasons to just say something like " Hey name, why don't we old guys just take a half lap while the kids go for it, we are just holding them up?"

Yes, I know, I don't have to watch out for every body and, what's more this was a temporal ordeal and thankfully there were no self-rescue or rescue consequenses for our trip going as it did.

Sorry to bother, but the falling hikers in the OP were fatigued and it just brought all this fresh radiocination right back to my mind.

Any thoughts.

I really have trouble understanding your use of vernacular.
What are you trying to say?
You have a strange locution. Is English not your mother tongue (not a joke, a real question?) Or did you go to MIT (now joking)?
Very different post than your ttips upbeat one........

I guess (after re reading your post a few times), I guess you are just saying that one member wasn't up to the task at hand - what I tend to do if it isn't me holding people up is to say, "Hey, I am feeling a little tired. Can we take it easy?" And then I slow down things..........

[RR]

...what I tend to do if it isn't me holding people up is to say, "Hey, I am feeling a little tired. Can we take it easy?" And then I slow down things..........Thanks for confirming the idea that came to me only after the fact. I especially like the idea of redirecting the need for easing off away from someone who is probably aware that they are in need of it.

I'm very interested in how an unstructured group handles early signs of fatigue. It's possible that the signs could indicate an undisclosed illness or minor injury, but I'm mostly thinking of fatigue at this time.

The Lisa made a point about structured groups...leaders have more than tacit permission to make calls on such matters. What do we as less formal participants have to work with in our groups? Leadership will rise when there is an accident, but what about when it is "only" about preventing one?

...I guess you are just saying that one member wasn't up to the task at hand - .......Actually, in retrospect, he was up to the task, just not up for so much of it. Hey, sometimes I'm only good for one Tuckerman Gully and it's time for me to head out. Usually I get two or three runs and then head out.

In the case under discussion, the gent could have probably handled one 1000' run but took the two taken by the rest of the group. It occurs to me that the seduction of the conditions simply lead him to use far too much energy, leaving too little for the exit.

Did the group give permission by saying nothing?
Did the group choose to enable "play now and pay later"?
Did the individual turn-lust take on a group identity?

I think the answers are all "yes".

Query for T4Ters, anybody in touch with Steve N.? His comments would be pretty interesting.

[BladeGirl]

I really have trouble understanding your use of vernacular.
What are you trying to say?
You have a strange locution. Is English not your mother tongue (not a joke, a real question?)

I think b/c skiing is RR's mother tongue. :D

Rob, I think any skier would be fortunate to be in a group with you.

-BG

[skimtwashington]

Well.... the needed stitch to tug on in this thread is "Risk in Recreation":

We all take some risk. Even the most talented skilled athlete, who's additional confidence allows him to do what a layman would think is crazy and risky outright...or even what persons familiar and experienced to a 'moderate' level in that arena of pursuit might find a little crazy too...... is taking a 'calculated risk'.

Someone in poor shape, or overtaxed in decent shape.....without or even with the right equipment perhaps...making the wrong choices...or with the right choices but a simple momentary 'slip' or mistake.......can get in serious trouble....even on a simple summer hike. Never mind a ski-mountaineering trip in freezing weather.

We have adventurous, skilled, confident and calculating BC skiiers who post their trip, say......... of climbing up in Huntingtons and skiing a gully like Diagonal , skiing in a NO-FALL zone(falling results in possible injury or death if you fail to self arrest) and having an exciting amazing adventure. There is still a risk....even with all your skill and equipment! It might even be part of the reason we do it-the possible risk and challenge-not just the extra buzz of increased gravity pulling on us!

The ignorant, unskilled, under-equipped, not in good enough shape, and over- their- head.... may be the ones to most likely get in trouble or have an accident. Sure. And we'll shake our heads over their stupidity.

But some of the most athletically strong and skilled, well equipped, have gotten in trouble or had an accident pursuing the highest level of the sport.

We seem to accept much more readily the well known extreme skier perishing while skiing down an almost inherently more dangerous trip up and down Mt Everest than we do a person, say hiking without an ice axe on a lower angle slope who falls and hurts themselves.

The extreme skier just hit some unexpected unavoidable ice...it was unpreventable. The hiker was ignorant an careless for not carrying an ice axe....it was preventable.

Too weak, too tired, too ill-equipped....even for that 'mellow' trip that's normally low risk....your a fool!That's why you got hurt!

You're a energetic, well equipped, skilled athlete and you just skied a NO-FALL face. Great. You had an accident? Unfortunate. Your no fool though.

And still, most of even the most prepared, skilled, experienced....and usually safety conscious of us, have 'pushed it' at least once when we had a choice!

People with no 'external' adventures, who take no physical risk would call us all fools. Maybe the person with no ice axe is just on a different adventure for the same terrain as us?

**PS: Yes, the GOS does seem to rarely have the foolish! I think the foolish like more attention they get in Tucks! Good call.

Be safe
....., just 'push it real good'!

[surf88]

I think b/c skiing is RR's mother tongue. :D
Rob, I think any skier would be fortunate to be in a group with you.
-BG
Agreeing from experience, I'll add "or rider" to that statement.

[RR]

Thanks for the endorsements, but clearly I have a lot to learn.

Plenty of good points being mentioned....

May all of our "what ifs" be based on trips concluded w/o injury!

[Seeker]

Re: fatigue and unstructured groups.

I've been on hikes and BC skis where someone was flagging a bit (in a couple of cases that someone has been me). In one instance, I thought I recognized very early signs of hypothermia (grumpyness, stumbles) in a friend who I knew well and often hiked with and who usually had no problems. I suggested a water/snack break and said friend recovered immediately. He thanked me for making the suggested stop even though he didn't want to. He hadn't realized what was going on (as it common in those situations), but I had insisted because "I" needed to. Tricky, eh? :cool:

So my first question Rob, did you all stop and have food and fluids before your descent? MANY bc folks I know are so go-go that they don't stop often or at all. I've had to insist on breaks in the past and will again. Personally, I need the energy.

In another case, I was the one flagging. I was bringing up the rear and had just caught up to the group. I was bending over to pick something up and toppled right over. A friend recognized that I was beat and from then on kept an eye on me. I just did not have it that day. I made one run and recognized that I needed to conserve energy to get my butt out of there, so I put on my down coat and hung out sitting on my pad snacking while they got in two more runs. I was plenty warm and then we all had a fine ski out together.

Of course, you can't always count on people to be self-aware, but I can say that my friend's attention to me was a clue that I needed to dial it back.

I'm a big fan of communication. I don't worry about people's pride, but I also recognize the need to gently coherce people who may not know they need to take care of themselves.

Anyone who hasn't should take wilderness first aid and stay certified. It's just smart given how much we all like to play and do so safely. Then, use it! Pay attention to your mates and do what you need to do to get everyone out safely.

My 0.2.

[RR]

Food and water....yup, could have been an issue. We took lunch down in the sun and out of the wind, maybe 15 minutes, maybe a few more. Then we climbed for a second run and back out for the exit. Every hour or so during the day I opened a GU, some veggie jerky or a stinger and used about 2 litres of water.

Lunch was a Probar, some veggie jerky, a sip of Repsado and a Royal Coronation....maybe not the health conscious fare folks might expect but I never felt the slightest bit close to running out of energy...

Besides, I have many days extra energy packed on and know how to use pace to keep fat metabolism as the dominant energy supply...

But, back to the point, when I noticed someone was looking dry and hadn't appeared to stop to pee...I should have used whatever ploy to get the group stopped and start getting our comrade's hydtration up to par.

I suspect nutrition was at issue, but that is less certain as I can't recall if the individual was snacking frequently or not.

[mtd2007]

It's extra hard when communication isn't the core of the groups' preparedness. The nominal leader and yours truly each do a lot of solo tours; group thinking is not a practiced art...

It's way easier to speak to yourself for yourself or to speak clearly when it's just you and your tour partner to talk stuff over.

and I agree, this is a good thread, great comments -

[altadude]

and I agree, this is a good thread, great comments -

two more thoughts:
1. group dynamics are very complicated. The flagging person may have felt the need to push himself to keep up.........often there are unspoken directives within a group to do more than one member is capable of....I have been in situations where I had to speak up for the person involved. I often say that I won't do something or I am turning around now (without bagging the peak).

2. One member who begins to get in an unsafe state makes it potentially unsafe for the entire group.........so it behooves the group to keep account of all members.

A question: were there any women on the trip? I think there are some good data to suggest than women have a moderating influence and trips are safer when mixed genders are involved..........

I have solved this type of situation by ONLY going on trips or bc skiing with people I can trust, communicate with, and rely on........no location is worth it anymore by being with people I don't care to journey with.......I ONLY go to great destinations with great friends.........and I prefer to go in mixed company......BTW I am a male........

[bristlecone]

Good debrief RR, many points to echo here. I wish we'd made use of the ride back to do more hashing out of this thing, but I guess that being tired, looking out for deer and moose, and chit-chat was about all that we were up to. Some reflection time helps to frame thoughts too. Getting in between gravity and the crampon points of a sliding victim is a foreseeable moment that manifests larger issues to consider.

And good perspectives, all.

Communication and decision-making in an unstructured group - how best to do it? Though name's friend had the most familiarity with the route, we hadn't discussed structured vs. unstructured group, or nominal leader vs. leader vs. no leader. Would have been a good conversation to have had at the start.

I had also picked up some signs of name's impending exhaustion during the skin approach and then while playing temporary caboose on part of the steep slog. Didn't talk about it with name or the group. Why? My bad. Name's skiing skills came into focus during the first run into a different drainage - OK there, would be questionable in unknown icy conditions back over the hill to get home. Given that name bonked early on during our later exit descent, even that first run was one run too many.

Guilty: I let the corn, the sun, the stable snow, and the stoke during the first run push my concerns about others' energy levels far back in my mind. My bad. Given unknown, likely icy conditions in exit gully we should have limited to one run at that point to conserve name's energy. Name's friend brought that point up (well-phrased as a global concern) after the second run, at which point we all agreed.

Also guilty: Many solo tours = practice focusing only on natural hazards and own condition = rusty at group communication and keeping tabs on others' conditions/food/hydration. Group tours are much more fun but certainly add more elements to keep in mind - I need to do better there.

Before the final descent we regrouped to discuss exit strategy in a wind-sheltered locale, per wise suggestion of name's friend. Ski out exit gully or hike down trail? Name had crampons but no ice axe, and I'm still not sure if the walk out the trail would actually have been safer. We decided to assess exit gully conditions. As we approached the exit gully, I was up near the engine, not paying enough attention to the state of the bonking car in front of the self-appointed caboose. Guilty again: Cars up front should slide back and have candid conversations with the bonking car and caboose. By the time we were in the exit gully we were low enough that we were more or less committed to that exit route.

Group tours with less-than-ideal communication can work so long as everyone is up to the size and difficulty of the task and nothing goes very wrong. Better teamwork would certainly have materialized were there to have been a rescue situation. It would have been better if we had kept communication more flowing from the beginning to minimize that possibility.

Not insignificantly, if we hadn't had a dangerous situation develop, we may well have concluded that our communication, not tested by any difficult situation, had been just fine. It's hard to know if the chair is sturdy until big Aunt Matilda sits on it.

I still have yet to come back from a trip where I haven't learned something. This one? More talking - here's how I'm doing, how are you doing? Block stoke from judgment-making prefrontal cortex (stoke is still free to enter pleasure center, wherever that is). Play down goals. Early on, open the door further for everyone to be comfortable to (and to want to) say no to themselves and/or to others when they should.

We had a magnitude 5 that shook things up but didn't do any damage. The nice side of those is that we all get jolted into thinking about how to better prepare for the next one. Speaking of earthquakes, Mario Reiter blew out of the GS course in the Nagano Olympics during a minor earthquake. His comment later? "It was really a strange feeling, but I don't want to use that as an excuse. I guess I didn't harness its power."

[RR]

Wow! I emailed with friend of name today and he was in the same space. Name is aware of the events as a reality check and has also been considering these matters.

All in all I'll echo friend, and say I'm glad we got through it, but will learn from what was not done.

Name is definitely up to a Spring tour on Moosilauke, but up Snapper and down Gorge Brook, which would be better for stem turns than the long narrow bits of Snapper...

Better yet, the Carriage road, which, while not as thrilling, is a tour I like quite well!

The big slides? No way, that point about being gassed by the approach itself would go double for all the NH slides.

My folks were instructors (where did I go wrong??) and skied Expert runs well into their late 60's. Once, Dad stemmed his way down Starr and made it look pretty easy. He did the same on National and then stuck with easier trails to ski with an old friend. That same day I took some runs with my Step Mother and she stemmed down the chute of Upper Lift Line and seriously considered Goat before switching to beautiful Wedlen for the rest of Lift Line...Not bad for an old lady in her grey hair years. By that time they were up for 5,6 or 7 runs and would call it a day. Long tough tours...no way!

Someone was mentioning that ATApostle (McLean) mentioned of himself that "some days you got it and some days not so much". I agree, it's critical to let yourself and your touring companions know which sort of personal day you are having.

[Seeker]

Great discussion and honest assessment. I appreciate it, especially as the corn season approaches. RR, check your pms.

[altadude]

I like this ironic quote:

Experience is Something You Don't Get Until Just After You Need It.........

[The Lisa]

Like my favourite:
'Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.'

[altadude]

Like my favourite:
'Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.'

Nice. I like this one too.........though in all honesty one can learn from one's good decisions as well..............

RR: AT Apostle if he coined this: "some days you got it and some days not so much" is so accurate for me: some days I have it and some days I don't and it is important for me to listen to myself and act accordingly..........and when I see someone else not up to their usual level I also note it and work on limiting what we do............

One of the interesting aspects of Mt Washington is that is really is what in the west they refer to as 'slackcountry or front country' i.e. one is clearly exposed to the elements but not so far away from civilization so to speak. Often it attracts folks who don't really understand what the risks are of being in the backcountry. This is not meant as a comment on RR's group. I am sure they are primo. Just saying that I see lots of folks on MT W who aren't prepared for bad outcomes.........

Compare Mt W to being in the Gaspe on Mt Logan and 25 km from anyone........no ski patrol at the Gaspe, etc........

[jumpturn]

03-14-2009: Two incidents took place which required responses from USFS Snow Rangers, the Mount Washington Volunteer Ski Patrol (MWVSP), the AMC, and the HMC. In both cases, the victims slid out of control for a long distance on a very hard icy surface that dominated the mountain resulting in multiple injuries to each.

The first incident to be reported to the Snow Rangers involved a woman falling approximately 1200 feet from near the top of Left Gully. She was unable to self arrest and quickly lost her ice axe as she rapidly accelerated on the very slick surface. Along the way her crampon caught the surface, resulting in an open angulated lower leg fracture. She also suffered arm and rib injuries before coming to a stop low in the floor of Tuckerman Ravine. Snow Rangers, MWVSP, and AMC personnel responded, treated her injuries, and packaged her into a litter. The litter was belayed down the Little Headwall to the top of the Sherburne Ski Trail. From there a snowmobile transported the litter to an ambulance waiting at Pinkham Notch Visitor Center.

Approximately 15 minutes after being notified of the first incident, Snow Rangers learned of a second incident unfolding in Huntington Ravine. A mountaineer had fallen from somewhere between the top of the Fan and the ice bulge in Central Gully. He slid approximately 1000 feet through icy talus before coming to rest near the base of Huntington Ravine. The victim suffered numerous significant injuries including a mid-shaft femur fracture. Bystanders began to provide care while assistance was sought out. By the time the Snow Rangers arrived, the victim was conscious and in severe pain. He was splinted and packaged into a litter; which was belayed one rope length to flat ground at the base of the Ravine due to the icy surface. The USFS snowcat transported the victim to a waiting ambulance at Pinkham Notch Visitor Center.

These two incidents have one strong central theme—that sliding falls on icy surfaces are very difficult to stop. In these cases, the crust was formed three days prior to the incidents with a warm, wet day followed by a sharp drop in temperature. Surfaces immediately became incredibly hard and slick and stayed that way through the Saturday. The morning’s Avalanche Advisory stated “The main safety concern today is the potential for long sliding falls due to the hard icy snow conditions… Bring your crampons, ice axe and mountaineering experience with you today so you can get around in steep terrain and successfully self arrest if you slip. If you don't have this equipment and the ability to use it you should stick to low angled terrain.” One lesson we can all take home from these incidents is the importance of practicing your skills in all conditions and avoiding steep terrain on days when the difficulty of the conditions exceeds your ability to self arrest. Many thanks go out to the numerous bystanders and volunteers who helped out on these incidents.

And some skiers had trouble four days earlier....


03-10-2009: Two incidents involving skiers occurred almost simultaneously in Tuckerman Ravine in the late afternoon. At about 4pm, a skier descended the Sluice and as he transitioned into the floor of the Ravine his skis broke through a crust layer causing him to fall. The skier suffered a lower leg injury just below the top of his ski boot. At the time, the AMC caretaker from Hermit Lake and a friend were hiking to the ravine to have a look around. They saw bystanders packaging the skier into a litter retrieved from the Lunch Rocks cache and went to assist. As this party was working their way down the floor of the ravine, another skier fell in Right Gully, injuring his knee. This skier was able to walk to Hermit Lake under his own power while the first skier was brought down via the Little Headwall. USFS Snow Rangers transported both skiers from Hermit Lake to Pinkham Notch Visitor Center by snowcat.
http://www.tuckerman.org/accident/20082009.htm

[gulleyboy]

I really have trouble understanding your use of vernacular.
What are you trying to say?
You have a strange locution. Is English not your mother tongue (not a joke, a real question?) Or did you go to MIT (now joking)?
Very different post than your ttips upbeat one........

I guess (after re reading your post a few times), I guess you are just saying that one member wasn't up to the task at hand - what I tend to do if it isn't me holding people up is to say, "Hey, I am feeling a little tired. Can we take it easy?" And then I slow down things..........

I read the story a few times and am still scratching my head. It sounds a bit like a Don Quixote adventure. Anyway, I think the moral of his tale is: You on yer own, my friend. I'm lookin out fer me. I don't know if I subscribe to that philosophy. I would have tried to warn the guy that he probably needed to rest.

Anyway, back to reality. Climbing tux is inherently dangerous. A tragic fall can happen to the best of us. We can lessen the risk by being informed and prepared. Many of us believe the payoff is well worth the risk. :cooldog:

[Luddite]

RR's post resonates with me completely. Maybe 'cos I'm now the old guy. We're planning for 4/10 and I've got at least 10 years on everyone else and as I read this I read "things that make ya go hmmmm." Last time up I was brand new to tele, and hadn't been in about 10 years. I wasn't in bad shape, but I was a 40 something with a desk job, 'nuff said. The Garmonts I had were floppy and the new fangled 'shaped' skis had probably fewer than 4 days on them so you could say I was totally unaccustomed to the equipment. It was not a pretty day, but somehow through the fatigue I heard the voice that told me to dial it back and I had no real incidents. My skills are now up to speed on the teles, I have the right equipment and my boots actually fit this year, but I'll be honest - a full day of resort skiing kills me nowadays. My plan, alas, is to ski the just bowl with the option of right right if I'm feeling good. Reading RR's post makes me feel better about this plan, humbling though it is...

[drewvw]

Sorry, not a fan of huge posts but I want to relay a personal experience:


Great discussion. The point about how/what a leader is on tours is particularly interesting to me after my experience touring out west with a long time friend.

We have skied a bunch together and talk bc often, but had never really toured together until last week. Due to it being his home territory, the fact he's in twice the shape I am in, and his personality, it went without saying he was the leader.

Looking back on it however, I have to conclude that while he may have the snow skills to lead, he has a lot to learn about being a leader.

The point brought up earlier about how a good trip leader sacrifices his own intentions for the greater good (i.e., stopping cause someone else really needs a break, doing a half lap, staying with the group regardless of pace, etc) wasn't present at all.

Due to his personality, he is impatient and always kind of has to be "the man", so I found myself doing a lot of chasing and touring by myself while he was burning ahead for no reason.

We got in a situation where I KNEW we were on the wrong side of a ridge and brought it up several times, but by the 3rd time I caught up with him to chat it was already too late and the course of the day had to be changed.

Granted, it wasn't a safety issue this time around, but you can easily see how this could be very dangerous in another situation, and that irks me. So, I'm not in the biggest hurry to rush out and tour with this guy again next year, cause I feel like I have to treat it like I'm solo and he likes to do challenging stuff.


And to give credit where credit is due, I probably wouldn't have even thought twice about this if I hadn't been lucky enough to tour with some great leaders this season like Rob and Rog. Thanks guys.