Steepness Factoids

[rocket9]

Just like with fisherman, where the fish you lost gets bigger each time you re-tell the story, so is the steepness of trails once skied.

There is also quite a mis-understanding between the two ways steepness can be expressed. It can be in degrees (as discussed here at TFT) or it can be in percent grade (as is done is some marketing articles trying to push people to visit some extreme resort) and on steep highway sections. (13% Grade Next 3 1/2 miles.)

A trail measured at 45 degrees is said to have a grade of 100%. So YES to both of your questions: 1) Trails can be measured at well over 100%, you just don't see that many because there aren't that many, anywhere!
2) When a resort or a friend (let's call him "dude") tells you that the trail was 60 degrees, man, they/he really meant 60% grade or a fairly steep trail of about 30 degrees.

Back in 1992, Snow Country Mag (remember them?) ran a great article talking about steepness. They compared the typical household staircase to ski trails. The stairs (7 inches high [rise] by 11
inches out [run]) has a 63% grade and a 32.3 degree slope. This staircase was steeper than most Double Diamond ski trails. Here's some of the biggies that get mis-reported often:

Goat, Stowe, VT 35.3%, 19.5 degrees.

White Heat, Sunday River, ME 38.5%, only 21 degrees - seems a lot steeper!

Outer Limits, Killington, VT 42.6%, 23 degrees.

Corbet's Couloir, Jackson Hole, WY 80%, 38.6 degrees.

The Headwall, TR, NH 116%, 49 degrees.

I measured multiple areas of Tucks last Saturday with an Inclinometer made by Life-link (Bozeman, MT) only $16.00. In the Upper Chute I measured 49 degrees. On the upper headwall of the Left Gully I measured 53 degrees. I did not stop on the steepest part of Left to get a measurement, but it is certainly close to 55 degrees.

Granted every cornice has a brief section approaching true vertical, but the continuous slope is what is really being reported as the steepness of a trail.

I'll measure Ripcord and a few others next season to put an end to the bantering, as seen on other strings, but I agree with others, most trails that people think are STEEP are not really that steep after all.

So TUCKS ranks at the top of steepness, like we all really knew. It is also the most majestic back-country place to hike and ski, especially on a warm blue-sky'd day like last Sat/Sun.

I took a cool photo from the top of Left Gully that really gives the vertigo feeling of steepness that usually doesn't happen in a 2D photo. If anyone wants me to email it to them (about 1.2MB) I'll be happy to. email me rob@jobshop.com

It's still OK to tell fibs about the size Trout you caught, just don't lie anymore about STEEP runs in the East ;-)

Rob

[Mumster]

Interesting post. Why was the left gully incline steeper than that of the chute?

I thought the left gully was the path most traveled by first time tuckers and relative cowards. 53-55 degrees sounds steep if Jackson hole is in the 30's. :eek:

[Skilasnow]

This is all old news to me. But thank you for clarifying for others. I still say that Paradise at MRG is the steepest marked trail in the east and that it would rate at close to 40 degrees, way more than 40 %.

A few places in Las Lenas are greater than 45 degrees (100%) and I have skied some of those but they are less intense than anything I have skied at Tucks, largely because I've never skied shoulder deep powder at Tucks :D

[skicdave]

Great post rocket9. Should clearify things for many people. Email your photo to me at mailto:dmcgrath@skicentral.comdmcgrath@skicentral. com</a> if you'd like it available on T4T for all our members to see.

re: skimumster...

Left Gully would be steeper for the short section at the top (headwall area) than The Chute, however the average steepness of Left Gully is less than The Chute.

I think most people would agree that the easier routes if you like, would be Left Gully in the ravine, plus Hillmans Highway.

As far as falling is concerned, I'd rather windmill down Left Gully than up in The Chute, bouncing off those rock walls... well at least 5% less chance than The Chute.

[saxman]

Every party has to have a pooper. Only kidding. Interesting post, thanks. /Saxman

p.s. I still like "non-directional sliding device made of slippery vinyl", the best. /sm

[skidude]

rocket9:
2) When a resort or a friend (let's call him "dude") Hey are you trying to say something about me :mad:

[DMC]

Both the Left Gully and Hillmans get pretty freaking steep at the top...

Also - don't forget some years are steeper than others... Depends on the amount of snow and how it lays...

[stevefric]

How did you measure the grade of the headwall ?
Did you have to stop to do it ?

[SkiStooge]

My 11 cents worth: To a semi-purist like me the degree of pitch matters not a whit. If it's steep, you wipe out, it hurts bad. If it's not steep, you wipe out, it hurts not so bad. (The above is assuming that no rocks, obstacles, etc are whacked during the wipeout...then it hurts pretty badly either way) Me, I prefer to try my best not to wipe out on either. Have fun, be safe. Al :cool:

[TheOctopus]

Most of the top of Left Gully gets corniced during the winter but by the time most of us get to Tucks to ski, the cornice (at least the over-hanging part) is nearly all gone. Though there's some seriously steep snow left in its wake.

Easter Monday Mrs. Octopus and I climbed the LG headwall to access Hillmans -- it seemed damn-near vertical (which probably put it in the mid-50s, I'd guess) and we really wanted to ski it, but didn't have enough gas in the tank to hit both LG and Hillman's, and she hadn't seen Hillman's before.... Next time.

From previous years' adventures, and with soft snow, dare I say that's the best bit of terrain in the ravine? Heretical, I'm sure.

-The Octopus

[elwood]

The only time I have seen Tuckerman is in the summer when climbing Washington. It looked steep as hell, but that was without snow on it. As I looked on it that fine summer day, I was getting an adrenaline rush just thinking about skiing it. I can't wait to climb up the thing this weekend, and coming down will be even more fun!!! I will make sure to bring extra shorts in case I soil myself!!!

:skierscared:

[SkiStooge]

In the past, I have found Depends to be THE answer. Have fun, be safe. Al :cool:

[Sledhaulingmedic]

DMC:
Both the Left Gully and Hillmans get pretty freaking steep at the top...

Also - don't forget some years are steeper than others... Depends on the amount of snow and how it lays... When I first skied the Ravine in 1985, a retired fellow was making the hike without skis for the first time in 37 years. Herbie commented "I skied Tuckerman every year for 37 years until it got steep, then I quit."

[DMC]

Make friends with patrollers...
We helped haul sleds a couple of years ago for the Tucks vollunteer patrol...

I actually bring a couple of Ski Patrollers with me when I go.. Are you NSP?

[Jolly J]

I'm CSPS, and usually travell with a bunch of F/A gear. Just in case

[DMC]

I'm actually thinking about joing NSP this year..
I could use the skills and they could always use a snowboarder on SP...
It's just that whole getting up early thing...

[Jolly J]

To counter the getting up early.....First tracks every day make it all worth while.

[ILOVE2SKI]

great topic and very interesting

[billr]

Join us D. As for the early morning thing, well, between the first tracks and the sunrises, it's all right. And remember, our management wants us out skiing and visible, not sitting around inside. And that's all right too.

[DMC]

I'd have to shave... :(
Do any other Ski Patrollers on this board have a home mountain that makes you shave off your beard???

[Skilasnow]

They would make you shave !?!? What is there reasoning for this? I cannot fathom that any logicaleason :confused: ...

[jdew]

DMC,

I joined NSP last season. I never heard of any requirement regarding lack of facial hair for NSP. In fact, it seemed like well over 50 % of the patrollers had beards, go-T's or moustaches. You will be fine. Go for it.

jdew :snowboarding:

[DMC]

It's a home mountain thing...

The owner of Hunter Mountain is an ex-Army WWII guy... He runs the place pretty damn tight...

There's a few of us that refuse to shave to join up... When I was unemployed last Summer - I shaved my beard off for the first time in over a decade in prepartation to join... But then I found a job and actually ended up doing an interactive trail map for Hunter in trade for a season pass or two....
DMCs Interactive Trail Map.... (http://www.huntermtn.com/intermap.htm)

[<enzo>]

If you look at Ilove2ski's photo, you can measure the slope behind him at about 57 degrees.

Way back in '69, when the Bowl got something like 200+ feet of snow, we measured parts of the lip at 70 degrees right up until early April - skiing that was more of a case of freefalling sideways as opposed to turning! In early March it was almost impossible to climb up over the Lip, and prior to March they wouldn't even let you in. There were also the usual undercuts at the waterfall, only that year they were 50+ feet high! The lean-to's were acessable by tunneling DOWN to them - the snow cover didn't melt down to their floor level until late April. We still skied there up until late July.

If I remember right, National at Stow averages about 45 degrees, and Star is even steeper.

[loafnut]

im pretty sure that would be a 45% grade enzo. I dont think there are any marked trails in excess of 40 degrees in the east. and i think the most snowfall washington ever got was in 69... about 560 inches which is about 50 feet.

[Skilasnow]

&lt;enzo&gt;:

If I remember right, National at Stow averages about 45 degrees, and Star is even steeper. I can't believe that. I would be surprised if anything (marked) at Stowe was as steep as 40 degrees let alone steeper than 45...

[loafnut]

beat ya to it laslenas. :D :D
if goat is only 20 degrees on average i cant imagine national or starr to be much steeper

[NHski]

All this discusion of steepness has geared me up to buy a slopemeter. I definetly go to stowe, tucks and some other of the steep trails here back east and hopefully some out west too. I will report my findings!

[<enzo>]

My memory was definetely wrong! So much for remembering a Ski Magazine article of 25+ years ago!

Checked out the trails on Stowe's web site - http://www.stowe.com/onslope/flash/flash_map.html -

According to them:

Starr - 37 degrees at the top
Goat - 36 degrees
National - 30 degree avg ( which means that it is somewhere above that at the top)

[DMC]

&lt;enzo&gt;:
we measured parts of the lip at 70 degrees right up until early April - skiing that was more of a case of freefalling sideways as opposed to turning! Holy shiznit!!!! We need another year like that... I would LOVE to experience a year with that much snow...
:D

[TheOctopus]

NHski:
All this discusion of steepness has geared me up to buy a slopemeter. I definetly go to stowe, tucks and some other of the steep trails here back east and hopefully some out west too. I will report my findings! I played with one for the first time over Memorial Day weekend while bc skiing in the Sierra. They're pretty cool, and it's neat to see how good your guess as to the steepness of a slope was. Problem we found, though, was that on the truly steep stuff we weren't interested in (or even thinking about) messing around with the thing. One key observation was that most of the slopes we spent time on were within a few degrees of 38 -- the magical avalanche number. Turns out, of course, that snow tends to slide well on slopes that skiers like to slide on.... Be careful out there.

On the east coast trail thing, according to the topo, Paradise at MRG averages approximately 45 degrees. FWIW.

[skicdave]

Any idea how many degrees Vertige at Tremblant is? The top section isn't overly long but is definately steep... Of course it is usually scrapped off, but hey ice is a challenge! :eek:

[<enzo>]

Can't answer that one, but it's damned steep!

So far, the only site I've found that actually states the trail steepness is Stowe's. If someone can find that old Ski (or maybe Skiing) mag article, I seem to remember that K27 at Hunter was rated at or near the top of the list also.

That 200+ feet I mentioned earlier was in the bottom of the bowl - wind-blown in stuff, not actual snowfall out of the clouds. Lunch Rocks didn't become uncovered until mid-late April that year.

[skicdave]

Enzo,

I haven't been to Stowe in many years. Hope they didn't tear up Starr and Goat. Definately some of the best fall line steeps in the East and none to short.

I was always under the impression that the middle of the bowl at Tucks gets buried in about 60ft of snow... but I can imagine it could be more after you've visited Tux in the summer. That headwall is darn steep! Naturally it takes a bunch of snowblown snow from the plateau above to make it skiable.

[<enzo>]

The last time I was at Stowe was probably back in '75 or so, so I can imagine that a lot has changed since then! From the map on the Stowe link I provided, it looks like they have a lot more trails than I remember, but the description of Goat and Starr sound like they haven't been touched. Broke my best pair of VR17's on Starr... dammit! :mad:

'69 was an insane year for snow at Tucks. The view from Wildcat was awesome - hardly a rock anywhere above treeline showed (and the treeline looked a lot lower than normal!)- looked like you could ski almost anywhere you wanted, IF you were suicidal enough! We phoned to see about huts the 3rd week of February, but they wouldn't even let anyone go up there - too much avalanche danger - we finally got in the end of the first week of March - it took the 4 of us 3 hours to dig down to our hut and clean it out enough. 'bout froze my butt off - it was -10 degrees with a 40 mph wind. Thank heavens for getting winter camping experience with the Boy Scouts!

No need to spend $$$ on a Slopemeter or whatever - you can make what you need with a piece of string, a nut, a protractor, and some sort of straight edge. (Call me the King o' Cheap!) :D

[NHski]

Slopemeter is pretty cheap. I think $17 at Life-link.

[DMC]

They are cheap and fragile...
I smashed mine after 2 years... It still kinda works but I need to replace it...