ice axes and crampons

[Mumster]

I am interested in the experience of female T4T skiers, bladers or riders with crampons and ice axes :crampons: :iceaxe: . They look nasty. But, I'd like to return to TR early in the season when they would be helpful.

And advise/experience from the women out there??? bladegirl? Other women?
Or any advise from men with wives/girlfriends/mothers who use them? I'm usually not squeemish, but ..... :eek:

[RR]

There's fun to be had up high and those tools can make getting there a lot easier and safer. However they take a bit of getting used to. I have taught the basics on occasion and have to caution that practice in a safe place is really important. It can save you the frustration of difficulty getting any benefit and even save your bones from a nasty break.

Now some fun...got a steep, short snow slope? Great, leave the tools at the bottom and hike up, then try the old butt slide down. If that's quick and you are glad the slope was short, you are ready for step two.

Repeat the tool-less ascent and then try the belly slide, head first. See if you can drag a hand to spin to feet first and if you can, pull your feet up. Repeat the slide often enough so that your feet always come up. Then work on getting the feet up before you are more than half way round on the turn around. This is really key. Leading with the feet in a prone slide is bad, feet up.

If you are too tired and wet to continue, don't worry you just learned how to save your legs and prevent a high speed back flip.

Once you can do that every time put on the crampons and go for that belly slide turn around (no axe yet!) making sure to get the feet up before or as you turn. Don't let the crampons snag the snow.

I have to go, but check out this book: Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills (http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/product.cfm?PC=4275) it is the resource for all forms of Alpine travel. I can add some more, but go with the experts...

[Mumster]

RR:

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It helps a lot to know there is an organized approach to learning to safely use :iceaxe: :crampons: .

I ordered the book.
Thanks again.

The skimumster :skiplow: :iceaxe:

[TuckermanBullet]

Book a trip with Mike the Guide from EMS in North Conway. The EMS is located in The Eastern Slope Inn, off of the back of the lobby. Its expensive, makes for a long day, includes all equipment (Packs, skis if needed, crampons and axe. You need to make a reservation, and be sure to tell them that you never used an ice axe and crampons and need to learn how to self arrest with an ice axe and climb with crampons. Tell them you also want to learn to self arrest with a ski pole (When you are skiing or putting your skis on your ice axe will NOT help you stop) You will get to ski a run, and it is a long day. Other people may say that you do NOT need to take a lesson and pay all that money just to learn how to self arrest with an Ice Axe. When the time comes that you will need to self arrest with an Ice Axe, and you were able to roll and make the self arrest with the ice axe maybe ten feet from where the foot hold in the snow broke (You do NOT necesarrily need to just slip to ride the express to the bottom), that is when you will realize that it was worth every penny. Take it from someone who fell from just to the left of the Waterfall if you are looking up into the ravine, all the way to the bottom of lunch rocks. I put the skis down on a flat area just over the lip so that they would be easy to step into. The skis were on the ground in front of me, and I was still standing on the slope at the top edge of the ravine, just below the lip. I went to make the last step over the lip, and the last foothold that I was standing in broke. It was like getting shot out of a cannon. Ever since then, I always bring my crampons with me. And I always use them when climbing in snow or ice. You step and they stick. Better to be sure than ride the express again.

[HeyBC]

Great advice...spend the money and take the lessons. There is no substitute for experience. EMS offers some great courses in climbing and mountain safety. I believe they offer courses in Lake Placid, NY as well as NH. We have an EMS store here in Princeton (if there is not one in Phila.) that you could call or go to the EMS web site for info..

[BladeGirl]

Sorry, skimum, no female experience here. I also posted earlier in the season looking for advice on use of :crampons: , but I never tried them myself. Next year I DEFINATELY want to hike early enough to :skifemcool: all they way down. This year I tried a gizmo from my in-laws: a rubber thingie with coils of wire that goes over any :hikingboots: :skiboots: . It helped somewhat on flatish ice (walking down the trail) but was useless in deeper steeper snow. This year I also self-arrested with a ski pole :skipoles: for the first time (no training) and found it works well (at least where there is :snowflakes: for it to dig into)! So I'm not sure I want to add the weight of an :iceaxe: .
I may try to find the book in a library and see what it says.

[SkiStooge]

Lessons are a definite plus. Also, ditto to "Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills". I learned more stuff from that book and still go back and re-read it frequently. Alas, I wish it were that I had taken a couple lessons years ago. I learned most of what I know along with my buddies. The more diffucult, more frustrating, more painful (at times) ways. Nothing is more humbling than to finally go for a lesson and find out that there actually IS something that you don't know about or how to do something the correct way. Guess I was being watched out for by above for a lot of years 'cuz I'm still mostly in one piece (Physically, at least. Mentally????). OK, nuff said. Have fun, be safe. Al :skistooge:

[RR]

Even though I mosty go for useless factoids...here's a hint from an old timer:

You will shred several pairs of trousers and maybe the floor, fly and/or door of a tent with your own crampons in the first half dozen trips. Then you will go a long time with no damage to your stuff from your carmpons.

Then you wil get that ultra cool stretch XCR TNF bib, Marmot Alpinist pant or Patagucci pants and within the first ten minutes you will nick those beauties...

Sorry, but dems the facts brothers and sisters. Just the facts.

PS: Never wear your crampons in a tent.

PPS: You can tell the crampon users by the gaffer's tape applied on the inside of their damaged waterproof and breathable pants. Duct tape is just a temporary fix until you can get some gaffer's tape. Gaffer's tape is just a temporary fix until you get to the end of the season, when you can part with the panst long enought to get them patched by a professional with GTX/Membrain/etc.

[Greggers]

I've had a little training in mountaineering out west and I'll tell you this: Don't use crampons unless you need to. And this basically means whenever you can kick reasonable steps.

Often people get injued using crampons when they don't need to. There are two reasons for this: ONE, falling with crampons on introduces 16 or more sharp knives into the many risks should you fall. SECONDLY, using crampons on snow (as opposed to ice) makes the snow "ball up" under your feet and even just a few steps will coat the bottom of your boots with a nice ball of snow and ice.... you're better off using an uncramponed boot!

Your best bet is to learn self arrest skills as described by RR, and possibly learn to incorporate an ice axe in your self arrest. Finally, crampons aren't just like putting snow tires on your car, you need to know how to use them.

Sorry for being preachy, I'm not an expert, but I have been told by experts that the most common mistake people make in the mountains is using crampons when they don't need to or when they don't know how.

[RR]

All the popular models of crampon have an accessory anti-snow plate that prevents most of the snow build up. Some are called "anti-bot" plates. That accessory is highly recommended.

A fine point: My first response here is not about self arrest. It is only concerned with learning to keep the crampons off the snow and ice when sliding down hill. Self arrest practice usually starts with butt slides feet first and rolling in the approved manner to plant the pick of the ice axe and then work it like a lever to brake the speed of the slide.

Learning self arrest is, as folks have been saying, best done with a reputable course*. Some of these courses do other fun stuff like learning how to build an igloo and other snow shelters. Some also have avvy training. It's all fun on the snow with the right instructors...but it's also serious stuff.

The Appalachian Mountain Club has winter travel classes and adventures. I poached an igloo class on the summit cone of Layfayette three years ago.

For all you free heelers, the NATO runs camps in the Gulf of Slides and other places and Dick Hall is the funniest serious guy alive.

The EMS climbing school has it's share of great teachers too. In fact, right there in North Conway there's a lot of mountain travel professionals to choose from.

* Unless you are me (be glad you aren't), in which case it's about flinging oneself down the North Slide on Tripyramid and trying to self-arrest after 600 feet of sliding...Yahoo! My partner and I took three slides each using a 300 foot 7mm cord for backup.

Next winter I'll be skiing that 1800 foot** dreamy ride. Skinning in is easy and in some places that pitch is steep so it's worth every erg!

** the slide is maybe 1900 feet long as measured if you count the thinish trees at the top and the gully into the trees at the bottom

[NHski]

RR, are you refering to GOS when you talk about 1800 ft?

[Skilasnow]

RR:
Unless you are me (be glad you aren't), in which case it's about flinging oneself down the North Slide on Tripyramid and trying to self-arrest after 600 feet of sliding...Yahoo! My partner and I took three slides each using a 300 foot 7mm cord for backup.

Next winter I'll be skiing that 1800 foot** dreamy ride. Skinning in is easy and in some places that pitch is steep so it's worth every erg!
Awesome Idea! I hiked that when I was a kid. We came down the North side and I remember us all being quite wary of the pitch. It must be great in the snow. See you there with skins!!!

[elwood]

Sounds fun! I want to learn some self arrest techniques just to slide down some snow!!!

[TheOctopus]

I would just add another voice to the chorus of "take a lesson" and "practice, practice, practice."

Both an axe and crampons are useful for safely traveling in the mountains, but like all tools, if misused, they can mess you up big time.

My own $.02 is that if you can kick any steps at all in a slope, you should not be using crampons. And if you're using crampons on anything you plan to ski, think carefully about whether you want to ski it (unless, of course, you're purposefully climbing it while frozen, and awaiting the sun's certain warming rays). Self arrest with ski poles and skis on a steep, hardpacked surface is a dicey proposition, and unlike falling while climbing, you're probably already moving fast when you fall. (I'll let someone else handle proper usage of the whippet*, a tool that'll ruin more than your jacket if you fall on it.)

*What's a whippet? See, e.g., http://www.bdel.com/gear/backcountry/fl_whippet.php

[Skilasnow]

And please bring Avy gear to Las Lenas, at least a transmitter

[DMC]

Tansceivers are useless without a probe and shovel.. They are a trinity...

[Jolly J]

When I hiked Chute Variation a couple of weeks ago, I wish I had my crampons and ice axe with me. The next day I did the East Snowfield which is a lower pitch and I used them and they worked great. A lot less slipping. In hindsight I wouldn't have used the ice axe.

[DMC]

I have a whippet and I hardly use it...
I agree about using steps over crampons...
I saw somebody with crampons on at the top of a climbing line get knocked down and he cut someone up pretty bad...
All this gear is pretty dangerous..

[RR]

North Slide beta: see my new topic "Free riding on NE slides"